Why is the Supernatural Impossible?

[Explorer]

voidx said:

"If there is a sixth sense at the quantum level then how does it operate, what rules does it obey? How can its existence be inferred from observation? These are the questions that a logical framework would help answer, and its this framework that is missing from paranormal claims."

That was my point too. You, we, and others, have been provoked by a degree of controversy, into asking the relevant questions of science and research, and long may that effect continue.

As for paranormal "claims", I agree that is quite a different matter, but I thought we were discussing the paranormal per se. The claims that may be attached to it by charlatans and hoaxers, complicates the subject and stifles further scientific research, IMHO, as it inevitably serves only to encourage debunking for debunking's sake.

 

[Carn]

Carn said:

"Or when did the gold prize drop due to philosopher's stone being found?
That was 14th-17th century magic, but it has not become today's science, "

It has actually Carn. The philosopher's stone was the key for the transmutation of matter from one element to another. e.g. lead into gold. Uranium into Plutonium is now a common industrial practice, all down to science and technology.

Philosopher's stone was about transmuting cheap elements in a cheap way into expensive ones via chemical processes.
Uranium into Plutonium via radioactive processes is a expensive way to transform a expensive material into a horrible expensive material, that is definitely not what the alchemist's thought to be possible and tried to achieve. Try to transmute lead into gold that way and you'll lose a fortune.

This just shows, that the magic of today can be very far from what science of tomorrow does.
As i said sometimes it can have something correct, but the magic of today is a pretty bad study object to predict what the science of the future will be able to do.

Anything to say about witches and demons?

Carn

 

[voidx]

That was my point too. You, we, and others, have been provoked by a degree of controversy, into asking the relevant questions of science and research, and long may that effect continue.

Rereading your post I see what you were saying now.

Perhaps the sixth, or even the seventh, eighth and/or ninth sense, works at the quantum physical level directly to the brain. Who knows? I cannot prove it or demonstate that in any way, but intelligent speculation and hypothesising of how it may work serves to construct frameworks for future scientific research. That is how progress is made.

Its the bolded part that is key I think. The speculation and hypothesizing must be intelligent which is perhaps what has been lacking in large part to this point as it pertains to actual paranormal claims. However on some level I think the problem comes from the effect being so...debatable. We can easily observe the effects of light, of heat, of gases, and as such it was readily apparent that they had some outwardly visible effect that needed to be more deeply understood. That's what prompts the hypothesizing and experimenting. Paranormal effects are admittedly more subjective and highly debatable as to whether they exist at all. So they do not catch the focus of those who would likely have the ability to do such intelligent hypothesizing. Instead, its usually people wanting it to be true taking a crack at it instead.

As for paranormal "claims", I agree that is quite a different matter, but I thought we were discussing the paranormal per se. The claims that may be attached to it by charlatans and hoaxers, complicates the subject and stifles further scientific research, IMHO, as it inevitably serves only to encourage debunking for debunking's sake. [/B]

While I would agree with that, I would argue that its paranormal researchers in large part that have done this damage to themselves. Out right fraud, poor experimental designs, going to far in interpreting small or vague effects. All of these things have gone to justify many people's opinion that its just not worth the time and effort, that nothings there.

Again it comes down to a very fundamental difference. Most scientific work began on some sort of solid observable effect. Wanting a deeper understanding, and hypothesizing based on what would agree with that observation. The problem with things paranormal is that we have no base observation to go on. We have subjective anecdotes. And so we're on shaking ground from the beginning. While perhaps to some not a justification for not doing research into it, it should be plain to see why it is easily dismissed in exchange for more practical pursuits.

 

[Explorer]

Voidx, we are in total agreement it seems. Very refreshing!

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Most scientific work began on some sort of solid observable effect. Wanting a deeper understanding, and hypothesizing based on what would agree with that observation. The problem with things paranormal is that we have no base observation to go on. We have subjective anecdotes. And so we're on shaking ground from the beginning.

Cant agree more. Well said. A good reminder for any kind of believer in "paranormal" and "supernatural" stuff. First find a constant, one that is not explained with actual science, and only then make your hypothesis.

 

[hammegk]

What is it that makes the supernatural so impossible?

The same reasons that make interactive dualism impossible. Unfortunately, the answer is arrived at, and defended, by logic rather than empiricism.

Please choose the monism you find most logical.

 

[Tricky]

It's so cute when woo and gothy types spell magic "magick" like it's all mystical and stuff.

There is a very good reason for the variance in spelling. "Gothy" types (actually, pagans of all types) use "magick" to distinguish the spells and rituals they use, which don't work, from stage magic, ledgerdemain and illusion, which do.