Why Flight 93?

[deep]

There are numerous photos of plane parts. More in fact than there are of VJ Flight 592 after it crashed in Florida.

Funny, I thought about mentioning that flight, but didn't see much value in doing so considering it crashed in the everglades. Crashing into a body of water is in no way "similar" to what we've been told about the crash of Flight 93.

As for the actual Flight 93 wreckage, where I can find the pictures you're referring to? All I've ever seen are pictures of a hole in the ground and not much else.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The water and mud that Flight 592 hit was only a few feet deep, it was the limestone under them that made the plane disintergrate.

As to the photos do a google image search for "Flight 93 Wreckage". That'll give you a start.

BTW before you ask about reconstruction of the plane, they only do that when the cause of the crash is in doubt. Here there was no doubt about what caused it.

Finally, if you really really really believe that there was no wreckage, give United Airlines and ring and ask them what they were given back by the FBI. 95% of the plane was recovered and returned to UA.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I hate to sound all CTish...but the Kenya Airways crash photo's look 100 times worse than the Flight 93 photo's , it was at a 90° angle at impact as opposed to flight 93's 40° angle. A 90° angle of impact seems like it would leave far less debris than a plane that crashed at a 40°.
However, the speed of the Kenya Airways crash was not noted.

I'd disagree, from the photos I have seen of 507 they look comparable to the debries in close ups of the 93 crater, except that 507 has a lot of tree debris around, which isn't surprising since it hit trees. The pieces of plane that survived on top are certainly similar in size to those of 93, and most of 507 was buried in the ground, just like 93.

 

[ihaunter]

And if this was so, what happened to the building that was packed with explosives waiting for the plane to hit it?

I seem to recall reading someone claim that 93 was meant to hit WTC7, and that was to be the intended reason for it's collapse. Doesn't really work, but the same could be said of most of their theories.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I seem to recall reading someone claim that 93 was meant to hit WTC7, and that was to be the intended reason for it's collapse. Doesn't really work, but the same could be said of most of their theories.

For the sake of argument, why doesn't it work?
Note, I am not a CT guy.

 

[PhantomWolf]

For the sake of argument, why doesn't it work?
Note, I am not a CT guy.

You mean aside from the fact it was heading in the wrong direction for a NY strike?

 

[deep]

The water and mud that Flight 592 hit was only a few feet deep, it was the limestone under them that made the plane disintergrate.

As to the photos do a google image search for "Flight 93 Wreckage". That'll give you a start.

Thanks, but I don't need a "start", because the two crashes are not similar. They used divers to study and recover portions of the wreckage -- of course it's not going to be visible!

Finally, if you really really really believe that there was no wreckage, give United Airlines and ring and ask them what they were given back by the FBI. 95% of the plane was recovered and returned to UA.

Great, where can I find pictures of that 95%, shown in the original surroundings?

I just looked again, and there's no identifiable wreckage visible at the crash site. The only identifiable parts are shown as close-up photographs, with nothing even remotely resembling those parts in the bigger pictures.

Oddly enough, one of the close-ups appears to have '3 14 01' printed in the lower right-hand corner. Obviously, that alone proves nothing, but it's a great example of why out-of-context photos are worthless for proving that something like this really happened (because there's nothing linking the photos to the crash site).

 

[Gravy]

Deep44, the first responders and investigators are unanimous about the crash. If you wish to disprove them, present your earth-shattering, front page news, Pulitzer Prize-winning evidence NOW. Otherwise, stop your pathetic whining.

 

[Timothy]

One of the things that always amazes me is that most CTs seem to claim that every part of what happens in their theory was meant to happen that way. With Flight 93 this would mean it was meant to crash at Shanksville. My question is why? What did having a plane crash in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere actually achieve? Why was it necessary? What was gained from it?

The truth has already been revealed ...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55332

 

[PhantomWolf]

Thanks, but I don't need a "start", because the two crashes are not similar.

You asked about where to find photos of the flight 93 wreckage, did you change your mind when told where to start looking?

They used divers to study and recover portions of the wreckage

Actually most of Flight 592 was found by the searchers just walking about the crash site and standing on a piece of wreckage. The water was only around a foot deep.

Great, where can I find pictures of that 95%, shown in the original surroundings?

I aready told you.

there's no identifiable wreckage visible at the crash site. The only identifiable parts are shown as close-up photographs, with nothing even remotely resembling those parts in the bigger pictures.

you can see metal parts and and bit of fuselage scatted about the crater here.

Scattered debris

Fuselage part

More Fuselage

More Wreckage in Crater

Engine and Wreckage

Kenyan Airways Flight 570

How are the photos of KA 570 any different in context to the ones of UA 93?

 

[deep]

Deep44, the first responders and investigators are unanimous about the crash. If you wish to disprove them, present your earth-shattering, front page news, Pulitzer Prize-winning evidence NOW. Otherwise, stop your pathetic whining.

I've already presented it- it's really simple: the government's explanation for the crash of Flight 93 is not reproducible. If it was possible to crash a similar plane in a similar spot (e.g., roughly the same spot), you would not get similar results. If you doubt this, just look at any other similar plane crash -- in the past, or (as they happen) in the future.

As for the eyewitnesses at the scene- many of them said they saw no physical evidence to suggest that a commercial airliner had crashed there. Those claims were corroborated by the contextual photographic evidence. It doesn't really matter what the first-responders or investigators said, because if you re-read the first sentence I posted in this thread, I said "there's no independently verifiable evidence that a plane crashed in Shanksville". Eyewitness accounts that directly contradict the contextual photographic evidence cannot be considered independently verifiable, because we're forced to take their word for it.

As for my 'pathetic whining'- someone started a thread asking a question, and I responded. All of my responses have been polite, civil, and on-topic - the 'pathetic whining' you have observed is, quite frankly, on-par with your other 9/11-related observations.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Is there a diagram or something similar that gives flight path and a compass reading of the maps orientation?

 

[Gravy]

I've already presented it- it's really simple: the government's explanation for the crash of Flight 93 is not reproducible. If it was possible to crash a similar plane in a similar spot (e.g., roughly the same spot), you would not get similar results. If you doubt this, just look at any other similar plane crash -- in the past, or (as they happen) in the future.

Since everyone who was involved disagrees with you, the burden of proof of your claims remains squarely on your shoulders. So, you have evidence of this extraordinary claim? Go right ahead: present another case of a 757 hitting the ground upside down at a 40-degree nose-down angle, at 580 mph.

Go right ahead. Provide evidence of your claim. Now would be good. Does now work for you?

I thought not.

As for the eyewitnesses at the scene- many of them said they saw no physical evidence to suggest that a commercial airliner had crashed there.

Like these?

"Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company Assistant Fire Chief Rick King and three firefighters were the first responders on the scene with an engine and a tanker. Shanksville Fire Chief Terry Shaffer also responded from 10 minutes away.

While enroute to the scene, there was a concern for the potential of large numbers of casualties. Chief Shaffer requested additional ambulances and EMS units dispatched to the scene. Two ambulances from outside the county were also alerted but were placed in service while responding.

Upon arrival, firefighters found small pieces of the plane, spot fires, and a large quantity of fuel scattered across a wide debris field. A quick survey of the scene found no survivors. Additional resources were requested from County Control, which included additional suppression companies and the Somerset Fire Company’s hazardous materials team. Federal authorities, including the FBI and NTSB, arrived relatively quickly to secure the site and begin the evidence collection and body recovery process.

http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/rolevolfiresvc911.pdf

Firefighters from Shanksville and Stoystown departments spent over 1500 hours at the crash site. Name one who says flight 93 didn't crash there.

Just one. Now would be good.

When former firefighter Dave Fox arrived at the scene, "He saw a wiring harness, and a piston. None of the other pieces was bigger than a TV remote. He saw three chunks of torn human tissue. He swallowed hard. 'You knew there were people there, but you couldn't see them,' he says."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_90823.html

Another liar, huh?

These first responders were also on the scene early on 9/11:

• Central City Fire Department,
• Berlin Fire Department,
• Friedens Volunteer Fire Department,
• Listie Volunteer Fire Company,
• Somerset Volunteer Fire Department,
• Somerset Ambulance Association,
• Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the
• Hooversville Rescue Squad.

Name one person from those squads who says flight 93 didn't crash there.

Just one. Go ahead.

King said the Red Cross has been on the scene from the beginning, providing food and water to more than 600 exhausted workers from local fire departments, FBI, ATF, NTSB, FEMA, state police and coroners' offices from around Pennsylvania.

Name one investigator who says flight 93 didn't crash there.

Just one. Do it now.

Somerset County coroner Wallace Miller was on the scene early...

"Miller was familiar with scenes of sudden and violent death, although none quite like this. Walking in his gumboots, the only recognisable body part he saw was a piece of spinal cord, with five vertebrae attached."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/09/1031115990570.html

...And he spent two weeks collecting human remains and personal effects from the passengers on flight 93.

"We went through here on our hands and knees hundreds of times,"
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/09/1031115990570.html

Prove that he's lying. Go right ahead.

Miller personally identified 12 of the victims through dental records and fingerprints. Show me your evidence that he didn't. Right now.

Those claims were corroborated by the contextual photographic evidence. It doesn't really matter what the first-responders or investigators said, because if you re-read the first sentence I posted in this thread, I said "there's no independently verifiable evidence that a plane crashed in Shanksville". Eyewitness accounts that directly contradict the contextual photographic evidence cannot be considered independently verifiable, because we're forced to take their word for it.

What's it like to be so disconnected from reality?

Details of the 37 phone calls made from the plane:
http://911debunker.livejournal.com/7697.html?mode=reply
http://tinyurl.com/j4zjv
http://tinyurl.com/h4u44

"We got the call about 9:58 this morning from a male passenger stating that he was locked in the bathroom of United Flight 93 traveling from Newark to San Francisco, and they were being hijacked," said Glenn Cramer, a 911 supervisor. "We confirmed that with him several times and we asked him to repeat what he said. He was very distraught. He said he believed the plane was going down. He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where. And then we lost contact with him."http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

Photo of Airfone from flight 93 crash scene http://tinyurl.com/qnd8l

The Air Traffic Control recordings and accounts. http://tinyurl.com/ncwf9http://tinyurl.com/qg3ht

The Cockpit Voice Recorder recording transcript: http://tinyurl.com/rxe8a
Photo of Flight 93's CVR: http://tinyurl.com/lulmt

The Flight Data Recorder recording. http://tinyurl.com/myayp
Photo of FDR: http://tinyurl.com/osa7m

The FDR data show that the plane was intact and its systems were operating normally at impact. The plane’s roll angle corresponds to eyewitness reports:

1. Cabin pressure - NORMAL
2. Hydraulics - NORMAL
3. Cargo fire - NORMAL
4. Smoke - NORMAL
5. Engines - RUNNING
6. Engine RPM (N1) 70%
7. Fuel pressure - NORMAL
8. Engine vibration - LO
9. Wind direction - WEST
10. Wind speed - 25 kts
11. Pitch angle - 40 deg down
12. Airspeed - 500 kts
13. Heading - 180 deg
14. Roll angle - 150 deg right
15. AoA - 20 deg negative

The NORAD recordings. http://tinyurl.com/rc2dn

Photos of the crash scene, debris, and personal effects. http://tinyurl.com/p7zznhttp://tinyurl.com/h7ghq
http://911myths.com/html/flight_93_photos.htmlhttp://tinyurl.com/qd4oo
http://tinyurl.com/r5m8thttp://tinyurl.com/m2tnf
http://tinyurl.com/nfy5f Slideshow of site and debris: http://tinyurl.com/hfqan

Hijacker identification from the crash scene: http://tinyurl.com/ppknuhttp://tinyurl.com/qt3an
http://tinyurl.com/om54http://tinyurl.com/logjb
http://tinyurl.com/n9zklhttp://tinyurl.com/mrw64

Val McClatchey's photo (certified as authentic by the FBI's examination of her camera's memory card.)

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]The Falcon 20 crew's report. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp[/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]The C-130 crew's report http://tinyurl.com/mg4xh[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif] Bob Blair was completing a routine drive to Shade Creek just after 10 a.m. Tuesday, when he saw a huge silver plane fly past him just above the treetops and crash into the woods along Lambertsville Road.
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[FONT=arial,sans-serif] Blair, of Stoystown, a driver with Jim Barron Trucking of Somerset, was traveling in a coal truck along with Doug Miller of Somerset, when they saw the plane spiraling to the ground and then explode on the outskirts of Lambertsville.
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[FONT=arial,sans-serif] “I saw the plane flying upside down overhead and crash into the nearby trees. My buddy, Doug, and I grabbed our fire extinguishers and ran to the scene,” said Blair. http://tinyurl.com/guct4[/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif] Then Peterson said he saw a fireball, heard an explosion and saw a mushroom cloud of smoke rise into the sky.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif] Peterson rushed to the scene on an all-terrain vehicle and when he arrived he saw bits and pieces of an airliner spread over a large area of an abandoned strip-mine in Stonycreek Township.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif] "There was a crater in the ground that was really burning," Peterson said. Strewn about were pieces of clothing hanging from trees and parts of the Boeing 757, but nothing bigger than a couple of feet long, he said. Many of the items were burning. http://tinyurl.com/fa75e[/FONT]​

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"I just watched with my mouth open as this yellow mushroom cloud rose up just like an atomic bomb over the hill where I like to go hunting," said 72- year-old John Walsh
Barefoot and in his bathrobe, he drove up the dirt road to rescue anyone he could find. There would be nothing he could do.[/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif] Debris, including photographs and other papers that survived the fireball, was strewn over a wide area. Residents have spent days collecting it. http://tinyurl.com/oapxx[/FONT]​

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"When the plane hit, it sounded like something just fell on the roof. Everybody sort of panicked," she said. "I went to the window and saw all this smoke coming up and I just pointed and screamed." http://tinyurl.com/rl5qc[/FONT]​

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Charles Sturtz, 53, who lives just over the hillside from the crash site, said a fireball 200 feet high shot up over the hill. He got to the crash scene even before the firefighters. http://tinyurl.com/rl5qc[/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Terry Butler, at Stoystown: He sees the plane come out of the clouds, low to the ground. "It was moving like you wouldn't believe. Next thing I knew it makes a heck of a sharp, right-hand turn." It banks to the right and appears to be trying to climb to clear one of the ridges, but it continues to turn to the right and then veers behind a ridge. About a second later it crashes. [St. Petersburg Times, 9/12/01][/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Tim Lensbouer, 300 yards away: "I heard it for 10 or 15 seconds and it sounded like it was going full bore." [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/12/01][/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Rob Kimmel, several miles from the crash site: He sees it fly overhead, banking hard to the right. It is 200 feet or less off the ground as it crests a hill to the southeast. "I saw the top of the plane, not the bottom." [Among the Heroes, by Jere Longman, 8/02, p. 210-211][/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Tom Fritz, about a quarter-mile from the crash site: He hears a sound that "wasn't quite right" and looks up in the sky. "It dropped all of a sudden, like a stone," going "so fast that you couldn't even make out what color it was." [St. Petersburg Times, 9/12/01][/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Terry Butler, a few miles north of Lambertsville: "It dropped out of the clouds." The plane rose slightly, trying to gain altitude, then "it just went flip to the right and then straight down." [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/12/01][/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Lee Purbaugh, 300 yards away: "There was an incredibly loud rumbling sound and there it was, right there, right above my head – maybe 50 feet up.... I saw it rock from side to side then, suddenly, it dipped and dived, nose first, with a huge explosion, into the ground. I knew immediately that no one could possibly have survived." [Independent, 8/13/02][/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Linda Shepley: She hears a loud bang and sees the plane bank to the side. [ABC News, 9/11/01] She sees the plane wobbling right and left, at a low altitude of roughly 2,500 feet, when suddenly the right wing dips straight down, and the plane plunges into the earth.[Philadelphia Daily News, 11/15/01][/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Kelly Leverknight in Stony Creek Township of Shanksville: "There was no smoke, it just went straight down. I saw the belly of the plane." It sounds like it is flying low, and it's heading east. [Daily American, 9/12/01, St. Petersburg Times, 9/12/01][/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]A witness told WTAE-TV's Paul Van Osdol that she saw the plane overhead. It made a high-pitched, screeching sound. The plane then made a sharp, 90-degree downward turn and crashed.
http://newsandviews.tripod.com/news/091101tv2.html[/FONT]​

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Tim Thornsberg, working in a nearby strip mine: "It came in low over the trees and started wobbling. Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees." [WPXI Channel 11, 9/13/01][/FONT]

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[FONT=arial,sans-serif] Paula Pluta of Stonycreek Township was watching a television rerun of “Little House on the Prairie” when the plane went down about 1,500 yards from her home along Lambertsville Road at Little Prairie Lane.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif] “I looked out the window and saw the plane nose-dive right into the ground,” she said, barefoot and shaken just 45 minutes after the crash.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif] The explosion buckled her garage doors and blasted open a latched window on her home, she said.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif] “It was just a streak of silver. Then a fireball shot up as high as the clouds. There was no way anybody could have survived. I called 911 right away.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif] “There was no way anything was left,” Pluta added. “There was just charred pieces of metal and a big hole. The plane didn’t slide into the crash. It went straight into the ground. Wings out. Nose down.” "Scene of Utter Destruction" http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12940.html[/FONT]


So what did United Airlines tell you when you told them that their plane didn't crash in Somerset, and that the parts they have are not from that plane?

What did the investigators tell you when you told them that they investigated the wrong plane and found the wrong human remains and personal effects?


People like you, who make sick claims based on twisted fantasies, and chose to ignore reality, need help.

Please get help. Start immediately. You can fix this.

 

[The Doc]

Owned By Gravy™

What a lovely looking post. Rational, well presented and factual. Perhaps you should give it a try sometime deep44.

 

[leftysergeant]

There is also the fact that the imprint on the ground corresponds to the shape of the right aircraft.

Why would it be unrelplicateable? That was reclaimed land in a former strip mine. Gravel and sand, no bedrock.

Of course there were no immediately-identifiable bodies or aircraft parts. What didn't get shoved into the ground would have been so shredded, mashed, twisted and otherwise discombobulated that it would take some expertise just to tell what it was.

CTs do not, generally speaking, know much about crash scenes. I do, having been a first responder to a couple. The Shanksville site looks just as it should, given what I have been told about the angle at which the plane hit.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

There is also the fact that the imprint on the ground corresponds to the shape of the right aircraft.

Why would it be unrelplicateable? That was reclaimed land in a former strip mine. Gravel and sand, no bedrock.

Of course there were no immediately-identifiable bodies or aircraft parts. What didn't get shoved into the ground would have been so shredded, mashed, twisted and otherwise discombobulated that it would take some expertise just to tell what it was.

CTs do not, generally speaking, know much about crash scenes. I do, having been a first responder to a couple. The Shanksville site looks just as it should, given what I have been told about the angle at which the plane hit.

Could you explain it to me then, please.
(I'm not being facetious)

The plane was between said to be at a 40° angle, but the impact area looks like a 90° angle impact to me.
It's a flaw of mine I guess. People say I focus on little aspects, but I like to understand things fully. I always have. I took a toaster apart when I was 6 years old because I wanted to know how it worked. (So my parents told me)

I also want to see a map that has a compass on it, and the planes flight path.
That way I can fully understand the event.
Those seem to be the two major parts I have not seen much information on yet. What would really help is a picture of the crash sight from above with the flight path and compass on it. I cannot find one.

 

[uk_dave]

CTs do not, generally speaking, know much about crash scenes. I do, having been a first responder to a couple. The Shanksville site looks just as it should, given what I have been told about the angle at which the plane hit.

Well that's a relief then.

I've never been able to understand how we managed to get the crash scene so badly wrong that even a handful of inexperienced 'truthers' could spot the fakery. But now you have confirmed that the site was just as it should have looked to someone familiar with these things I shall take the crash site deception team off of suspension and hang them the right way up.

Until the next time.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Thanks, but I don't need a "start", because the two crashes are not similar. They used divers to study and recover portions of the wreckage -- of course it's not going to be visible!





Great, where can I find pictures of that 95%, shown in the original surroundings?

I just looked again, and there's no identifiable wreckage visible at the crash site. The only identifiable parts are shown as close-up photographs, with nothing even remotely resembling those parts in the bigger pictures.

Oddly enough, one of the close-ups appears to have '3 14 01' printed in the lower right-hand corner. Obviously, that alone proves nothing, but it's a great example of why out-of-context photos are worthless for proving that something like this really happened (because there's nothing linking the photos to the crash site).

Tell you what. How about you show me pictures of 95% of the wreckage of any plane crash at its scene ever. You can't do it because no one does such things for anything. Yet when it comes to your little 9/11 cult, you try to pretend it's some big conspiracy and that what is a common scenario is somehow unusual this time.

Any photos would be worthless for proving anything if your goal is to simply find a conspiracy. They could have photos so detailed of the plane that you could identify the passengers through the windows, and it wouldn't matter. Even if eveidence was brought forth that you require, you would simply claim it's faked. If someone brought you pictures of 95% of the plane, you would say it's fake. And that 95% is pretty much shredded scraps so you would simply say it's not proof of a plane because it doesn't look like a plane.

So who are you really kidding here? All you are doing is trying to create an environment that prohibits anything but what you want to see and being 100% unrealistic.

Here's a thought, you show us pictures that show 95% of the missile that crashed there. You show us all the evidence that backs up your conspiracy claims. Isn't that at least fair considering your demands? Show us just one picture of debris left form the missile/drone, what not you guys claim. We can all play the same con games.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

As for the whole 'flight 93 was there in case the other planes missed' theory...

What if two planes had missed? And wasn't it all remote controlled with hi tech stuff? And if the planes had missed their mark, the jig would kinda be up anyways. so what good would a second backup plane do? And ya know if a plane missed, it just simply needs to turn around and try again. So having an extra plane instead of turning the real planes around is a big absurd is it not?

 

[leftysergeant]

From the imprint in the ground, it is clear that the plane hit up-side down. Notice the way that the dirt in front of the crater is pushed up. This is a clear indication that the plane was moving in that direction. The faintness of the tail imprint is significant in that it would seem to me to indicate that it was already begining to separate from the rest of the aircraft when it hit. Thus, it would easily have been catapulted into the woods, where it was allegedly found. The same could be said of various fuselage parts. It is quite likely that this was also when some of the lighter contents such as paper items were catapulted into the air, and perhaps kept there by the heat of the deflagrating fuel and the thermal updraft it created.