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Why Flight 93?

gumboot said:
Here's my best estimate of the situation:

[qimg]http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/calan8/UA93.jpg[/qimg]

The yellow designates the rough location and orientation of the UA93 impact crater. The red lines depict the frame limits of your claimed camera location.

The blue lines depict the frame limits of my proposed camera location.

A number of factors are important to draw attention to:

1. Your location denotes a wide angle taken from inside the crash area. There's two major issues with this:
A) The shot is taken on a very long lens, as identified by the foreshortening in the image.
B) There is no way the FBI would be allowing Fox camera crews to wander all over the crash site taking video.

2. My location denotes a long lens shot taken from outside the crash area.
A) The focal length more closely matches what we see in the video.
B) The camera location is by the side of a public road, on public property, rather than in the middle of private property and a crime scene.

3. Your location is at odds with what we see in the frame.
A) In the southerly direction, the narrow band of forest is followed by open space and then a large pond. In the video we see neither, which we should as the location for your camera is considerably higher than the surrounding ground. The forest extends without break for a considerable distance behind the crater.
B) In the video we see neither of the two buildings which are located along the gap in the trees. At least one should be visible.
C) What you identify as a gap in the trees is nothing more than a fall away in tree height (the ground drops away from the crash site).

4. My location matches what we see in the frame.
A) The ground west of the impact is dense forest for a considerable distance, dropping away at first before then climbing again.
B) The foreshortening distorts the image, hiding the gravel end of the road and much of the crater (which appears to actually extend a considerable distance into the frame).

-Gumboot
Click to expand...

You're video in the drawing is a little slanted don't you think?
According to your drawing of the camera's LOS, you should only be able to see the very end point of the trees on the right.

However, in the video we see more than just the end point of that section of trees. We see a nice portion of the trees that later get damaged.
As is the case with the section at 2:00. One smoking, perhaps three blackened. Not at all what it looks like later.
 
DGM said:
DA: Hi
What direction was 93 heading and which way was the wind blowing?
Click to expand...
DGM,
Hi Back!

The wind was South East at 10mph.
I still have no picture of the plane impact area that shows the heading at impact. No luck on that one yet.:(

*Edit* Said south west...oops*
 
DGM said:
Take a peek at this picture. Notice there's no vegetation on the lower branches. In the video I think you see the green from the trees behind the burnt ones. The low quality video combined with the zoom distance would easily explain this.

DGM
Click to expand...

The video was not shot at that angle or altitude.
That can be misleading. But the damage there is still obvious.
 
Why doesn't someone ****ing ask the people who took the shot where they were when it was taken if it's so ****ing important?

Jeez, all this back and forth and no one goes to the source?
 
Devil's Advocate said:
The video was not shot at that angle or altitude.
That can be misleading. But the damage there is still obvious.
Click to expand...
DGM said:
Your not getting my point. There is nothing on the base of those trees to see. But behind them (through the forest) is lots of green.
Click to expand...

DA if you look at the photographs from Shanksville by Tim Shaffer, at "September 11 Bearing Witness to History" on the website of the National Museum of American History, you will more clearly understand the point DGM tries to illustrate. Just google "Tim Shaffer Shanksville", and you will get the website on the top, sorry I cant post a direct link yet.
 
Devil's Advocate said:
What you're saying is that the FDR was wrong in this case? I do not want to assume that is what you're saying, I just want to make sure.
Click to expand...
You're the one who speculated, without any evidence, that the aircraft's pitch angle may have been up to 15° less than the FDR indicated. It's right here:

Devil's Advocate said:
But a difference of 15° will not make a difference at impact? If the flight was showing that 15° was level, and final was 40°, then that would mean the final angle was 25°. -25° if it was inverted? Follow a line into the ground at that angle and a straight down impact seems to be 'unlikely'.
Click to expand...


For this speculation to be correct there either has to have been an error of some kind in the recorded FDR data or one of the primary flight instruments of the aircraft was remarkably off and neither of the pilots did anything about it.
 
Devil's Advocate said:
You're video in the drawing is a little slanted don't you think?
Click to expand...


And? That's what the frame is. Maybe the camera man was going for a Dutch Tilt.



Devil's Advocate said:
According to your drawing of the camera's LOS, you should only be able to see the very end point of the trees on the right.
Click to expand...


Um. No. And... LOS?



Devil's Advocate said:
However, in the video we see more than just the end point of that section of trees. We see a nice portion of the trees that later get damaged.
As is the case with the section at 2:00. One smoking, perhaps three blackened. Not at all what it looks like later.
Click to expand...


No, you're completely and utterly wrong. And obviously have no understanding of photographic interpretation.

-Gumboot
 
Devil's Advocate said:
DGM,
Hi Back!

The wind was South East at 10mph.
I still have no picture of the plane impact area that shows the heading at impact. No luck on that one yet.:(

*Edit* Said south west...oops*
Click to expand...

It is possible to estimate the heading of the aircraft at impact from the exhibit photograph that DGM linked to in post #203 by comparing it to the Google Earth air photo of the area that gumboot posted in post #193. The photo gumboot provided is oriented correctly with north at the top, you can find the site in Google Earth to verify it.

When the aircraft hit the ground at 500 knots (257 m/s) debris and fuel that were not buried in the crater would be ricocheting out of the crater towards the wood in the flight direction. By drawing an imaginary line from the crater to the center of the damaged area in the wood you get the heading. That line runs almost parallel with the open path in the wood to the left in the exhibit photograph. In Google Earth you find that the path goes from north to south towards the pond in the background on the exhibit photo.

The conclusion is therefore that at the aircraft was heading south on impact. Maybe somewhat towards south-west. Difficult to judge exactly.

PS
The speed at impact 250 knots = 257 m/s = 845 ft/s is comparable to the muzzle velocity of a bullet from a pistol or a revolver.
 
Norseman said:
It is possible to estimate the heading of the aircraft at impact from the exhibit photograph that DGM linked to in post #203 by comparing it to the Google Earth air photo of the area that gumboot posted in post #193. The photo gumboot provided is oriented correctly with north at the top, you can find the site in Google Earth to verify it.

When the aircraft hit the ground at 500 knots (257 m/s) debris and fuel that were not buried in the crater would be ricocheting out of the crater towards the wood in the flight direction. By drawing an imaginary line from the crater to the center of the damaged area in the wood you get the heading. That line runs almost parallel with the open path in the wood to the left in the exhibit photograph. In Google Earth you find that the path goes from north to south towards the pond in the background on the exhibit photo.

The conclusion is therefore that at the aircraft was heading south on impact. Maybe somewhat towards south-west. Difficult to judge exactly.

PS
The speed at impact 250 knots = 257 m/s = 845 ft/s is comparable to the muzzle velocity of a bullet from a pistol or a revolver.
Click to expand...



It's actually all there in the FDR data:

1. Cabin pressure - NORMAL
2. Hydraulics - NORMAL
3. Cargo fire - NORMAL
4. Smoke - NORMAL
5. Engines - RUNNING
6. Engine RPM (N1) 70%
7. Fuel pressure - NORMAL
8. Engine vibration - LO

9. Wind direction - WEST
10. Wind speed - 25 kts

11. Pitch angle - 40 deg down
12. Airspeed - 500 kts
13. Heading - 180 deg
14. Roll angle - 150 deg right
15. AoA - 20 deg negative
Click to expand...

At impact the aircraft was travelling at 500KT, on a heading of 180o, or due south.

-Gumboot
 
Norseman, those pics were later, after digging at the impact point. (Note the crater)
The video shows the area soon after the firefighters arrived. (10 min?)
And I am sorry, even though the plane was traveling quickly, it still resulted in an explosion. An explosion I'll add that left no apparent trace or scorching on the ground from which it generated.
It seems you have to discount things no matter how you look at it.
The explosion was so powerful it sent debris miles away, yet was too weak to leave even minor blast evidence in soft soil, nor any scorching in the area of the explosion?
It is all hard to grasp.

(LOS = Line Of Sight)
Your proposed LOS does not show a split in the tree's at all.
We will agree to disagree on the video.
Moving on.

To anyone,
Wind reading on the plane was West? I thought it was South East?
How does the plane register wind direction? (By what method?)


Thanks for aid in understanding the flight path. I did not want to assume what It was.
 
Actually, I think that the ridge of earth pushed up by the fuselgae and wings is a better indication of direction of flight. Such would form in front of the wings as they entered the ground. That the polane may have been in a slight roll at the time would tend to impart some motion to ejected materials to the side toward which it was rolling, so the direction of the ejection is less reliable as an indication of direction of travel.

As to why fires may have spread even with one of two fire units on the crash scene, it is a matter of priorities and the nature of natural cover fires.

The first priority was to secure the crash scene to look for possible survivors or to recover human remains and to preserve as much evidence as possible. Fighting the grass and woods fires was of secondary importance (though not low at any rate, the priority given the impact site was MUCH higher.) The grass fires could wait for additional units.
 

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gumboot said:
It's actually all there in the FDR data:

At impact the aircraft was travelling at 500KT, on a heading of 180o, or due south.

-Gumboot
Click to expand...
I gave Devil's Advocate that information, but because he's a troll, he said it didn't answer his question. I wish he would find a different subject to troll about. He may be surprised to learn that some people actually care about what happened on 9/11.
 
Devil's Advocate said:
The explosion was so powerful it sent debris miles away, yet was too weak to leave even minor blast evidence in soft soil, nor any scorching in the area of the explosion?
It is all hard to grasp.
Click to expand...

Why do you say the explosion sent debris miles away? Do you have any evidence for this?

Do you think pieces of heavier debris, after separating on impact at 500 knots, would need an addittional explosion to propel them a mile and a half away?

Do you think lighter debris, such as was found at greater distances, could be propelled for more than a mile by an explosion?

All you are proving is that if you can sneak in a bad assumption ("the explosion... sent debris miles away"), it is indeed possible to create apparent confusion where none exists. Big deal.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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