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Why Europe Abandoned Israel

Fascinating article, Skeptic. Thanks for posting it. Maybe because I am a Jew, but I worry about Muslim immigration to Europe, and its high birth rate, in that this rapidly growing population may bully non-Muslims into obeying sharia law. I worry about intolerance of gays, and women's rights, let alone Europe's dwindling support of Israel.

I am very aware that certain European skeptics on this forum are more sympathetic to the Palestinian struggle than to Israel's, and would challange them to consider how sheria law in Europe might tinker with their wishes to keep not just God, but Islam, out of meddling with their lives via their reality-based belief systems.
 
Europeans have abandoned Israel because they see them as Nazis.
 
If current trends continue, Europe will become Islamic. The question is, will they?
 
MaGZ said:
Europeans have abandoned Israel because they see them as Nazis.
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(Shrug)

Of course, at the same time, the Hamas and PLO--whose official goals are the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (best case) or massacre (most likely) of the Jews--somehow fail to earn the "Nazi" designation in European thought.

Now, what does that tell you? Apart from the total lack of understanding reality by the Europeans, that is.
 
Europe hasn't abandoned Israel. Europe acts fairly and proportionately to the Palestinians which is percieved by the militant Zionists as siding with the enemy.
 
William Rea said:
No.
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Who knows? I agree it doesn't seem likely they will. But history is full of surprises: just look at what was the "most likely thing to happen in 10 years" according to everybody in, say, 1910, 1920, 1930, etc.--and compare it to what actually happened.
 
Skeptic said:
(Shrug)

Of course, at the same time, the Hamas and PLO--whose official goals are the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (best case) or massacre (most likely) of the Jews--somehow fail to earn the "Nazi" designation in European thought.
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That's really interesting because I have heard of calls to remove the nation of Israel from the map but does that mean the expulsion or massacre of Jews?

Remember that the IRA until recently had an official goal to remove NI from the map.
 
Skeptic said:
(Shrug)

Of course, at the same time, the Hamas and PLO--whose official goals are the destruction of Israel and the expulsion (best case) or massacre (most likely) of the Jews--somehow fail to earn the "Nazi" designation in European thought.

Now, what does that tell you? Apart from the total lack of understanding reality by the Europeans, that is.
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You do realize that killing jews is not the defining characteristic of the nazi ideology, right? Persecuting jews is a pan-political thing. Nazism is better characterized by militant or even religious* nationalism coupled with ideas about the purity of race and obediance to the state.

Not that nazi is a very good description of Israel, either...

*I really want to write pseudo-religious here, but that prefix is dead in internet-debate... :(
 
William Rea said:
That's really interesting because I have heard of calls to remove the nation of Israel from the map but does that mean the expulsion or massacre of Jews?
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"Your honor, the defendant only intended to amputate the deceased's legs with a hacksaw; the deceased's death was an accident!"
 
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PogoPedant said:
You do realize that killing jews is not the defining characteristic of the nazi ideology, right?
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Actually, I'd say the eradication of the Jews is exactly the defining characteristic of Nazi ideology.

Nazism is better characterized by militant or even religious* nationalism coupled with ideas about the purity of race and obediance to the state.
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No, not really. "Militant nationalist" or "religious nationalist" is merely an unhelpful derisive insult the left uses to characterize anybody more patriotic than themselves en route to claiming that their opponents are "really" "just like the Nazis".

What distinguishes Nazism is not its "militant nationalism", but its gross and violent inhumanity, its genocidal goals. In that, it is quite similar to the PLO and Hamas.
 
Skeptic said:
Actually, I'd say the eradication of the Jews is exactly the defining characteristic of Nazi ideology.
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Then I believe you've misunderstood nazism. The idea was for the German race to reclaim what was once theirs and raise the third empire from the ashes of the Weimar Republic. The Jews were identified as the largest of a number of internal threats, i.e. factors inside of Germany that needed to be adressed to make the third empire happen.

Hitler and the other ideologues believed that jews had been a nuisance to civilization throughout history and proposed the final solution to this ongoing problem. That was the basis for the persecution of the Jews: They were an obstacle hampering the rise of the German people.

The nazis were crazy-evil for many reasons. Their industrialized mass-murder was just the most sickening in a long line of atrocities.

Skeptic said:
No, not really. "Militant nationalist" or "religious nationalist" is merely an unhelpful derisive insult the left uses to characterize anybody more patriotic than themselves en route to claiming that their opponents are "really" "just like the Nazis".

What distinguishes Nazism is not its "militant nationalism", but its gross and violent inhumanity, its genocidal goals. In that, it is quite similar to the PLO and Hamas.
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The gross and violent inhumanity we can agree on. That stems from somewhere, though, and I believe that the ideas the nazis inherited from fascism about the state as more important than the individual, and the leaders as someone almost superhuman that deserves unquestioning obedience and respect are to blame.

In other words, while the nazis and Hamas share the genocidal hatred of Jews, they've arrived there following different paths. Not that it's terribly important, of course, it's just that I'm generally tired of references to nazism.
 
Darat said:
What "current trend"?
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Current trends of Muslims making more babies than non Muslims in Europe, and increased immigration of Muslims from Muslim countries into Europe...You haven't noticed?
 
Skeptic said:
(Shrug)

Now, what does that tell you? Apart from the total lack of understanding reality by the Europeans, that is.
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I liked that: "Europeans". Yep, they are all alike, all 300 million of them. Not a single individual sticking out. Just as all americans are overweight burger eating rednecks with a gun in one hand and the bible in the other.
I noticed that Skeptic uses the phrase "Palestinians" in the same way.
By the way, I have met quite a few "israelis", during both business and vaccation in Israel. They range from stupid to smart, ugly to pretty and from secular "peaceniks" to hardcore zionists. I would therefore never (I hope at least I don't have done) say that "israelis" want this or that political solution, without qualifying how many (percentage) of israelis (or palestinians, europeans) that want this or that.

I would call the article from American Thinker more like a political speach than an anlysis, more like the "analysises" you sometimes find in leftist newspapers on America (The US). Not very enlightning.
For a start, I would really have liked a more precise definition of how Europe has abandoned Israel. Picking and choosing from what 20-odd countries have done at different moments of time is easy. Especially when you drop all counter examples.
 
Panhead56 said:
I liked that: "Europeans". Yep, they are all alike, all 300 million of them. Not a single individual sticking out.
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(Shrug)

Can you tell the difference between saying European countries in general have certain qualities, such as being anti-Israeli, for reasons that can be discerned and discusssed, and saying that every particular European is anti-Israeli?

You're committing the general-to-particular fallacy across the board: you assue that because I said something about a group of people in general, I mean that the property is true for every single individual in it. Of course that's not what I mean--but then again, only in your imagination is that what I said.
 
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