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Why Doctors Hate Science

Ivor,

I have a proposed solution to the problem that you do not get a fair hearing in any threads I also participate in. Since I previously agreed to your request not to participate in any threads that you started, I will continue to honour that request. Simply start your own thread when you wish to ensure a fair hearing.

Linda
 
The problem is that your reasoning is frequently inconsistent. When I suggest something in one thread it is wrong (and your followers in the thread come along and give me a kick just to let me know that I'm wrong). You suggest exactly the same thing in another thread and it is right (and your followers in the thread come along and give me a kick because giving Ivor a kick is the thing to do whenever he disagrees with you).

A bit of advice, Ivor. Insulting the person you are talking to is one thing; but if you insult the people who agree with him/her by calling them "followers", or whatnot, is a sure-fire way of getting the same people to think you're incapable of being reasonable.
 
A bit of advice, Ivor. Insulting the person you are talking to is one thing; but if you insult the people who agree with him/her by calling them "followers", or whatnot, is a sure-fire way of getting the same people to think you're incapable of being reasonable.

Its quicker if Linda just tells them he's incapable of being reasonable... ;)
 
Ivor,

I have a proposed solution to the problem that you do not get a fair hearing in any threads I also participate in. Since I previously agreed to your request not to participate in any threads that you started, I will continue to honour that request. Simply start your own thread when you wish to ensure a fair hearing.

Linda

It is of course up to you which threads you choose to participate in, but I will remind you the actual request I made was for you to not post in threads I started if you planned on deliberately ignoring my posts - behaviour which you had engaged in for several weeks before I made the request to you via PM.
 
It is of course up to you which threads you choose to participate in, but I will remind you the actual request I made was for you to not post in threads I started if you planned on deliberately ignoring my posts - behaviour which you had engaged in for several weeks before I made the request to you via PM.

I'm sorry. I thought that had been in a thread.

Linda
 
just thought I would pop in to see if anything productive has come about in the last couple of pages...

ok...

bye

TAM;)
 
I do not have a PhD.

I apologise for inflating your status.:)

However, I do not see people with professional degrees being given a free pass here. People argue vociferously with me, with Pax, with Skeptigirl, with Jeff Corey, with DrKitten, with JJM, with you...it seems to be the content that matters more than the status. And your statements show a quite disturbing lack of respect for others here.

With the exception of Beth, KellyB and myself, how many people argue with you who don't believe in alternative medicine, psi, or a (possibility of a) sky daddy?

What would you have me do? I say something, you read it as saying something quite different from what I meant, I spend page after page trying to explain what I meant....how long should I carry on? I have yet to figure out how to say things in a way that allows you to comprehend what I have to say. Doesn't it make more sense to just give this up?

I think that's just a rationalisation you use when I start finding inconsistencies in your ideas.

But you rarely manage to comprehend my reasoning. That others do manage to comprehend it is not a sign that they are "my followers". I can't even think of more than one or two people here who would tend to accept what I say without question. The rest of us agree and disagree with each other at will. And this is quite a nasty thing for you to say about anyone who happens to disagree with you or happens to share my opinion in any particular thread.

I think the sign of who are your followers in the thread is when posters start hurling insults my way for disagreeing with you.

Your reasoning in this thread has been to remove all significant meaning from the word 'paternalism' to allow you to claim it means the same as 'beneficence'.

You then present the idea of a doctor who listens to patients, answers their questions and asks them questions to reach a diagnosis and recommend a treatment. The doctor uses an approach to discovering what the patient wants I suggested in another thread and you slapped me down for it. Yet in this thread you think it is a good idea. Then you provide a link to an article which states that a confident diagnosis/prognosis has a significant effect on health outcome. When I suggested in another thread a similar idea for how alt. med. works I'm told lying to patients is unethical and it only affects patients' subjective assessment of their health.

Nowhere have you explained how it is possible for such a doctor's reasoning to be checked by the patient, which you said you thought was a reasonable idea.

Nowhere have you explained how the beneficial effects of a diagnosis delivered with false confidence are consistent with the exact opposite statement you said you thought was reasonable a idea.

Again, how can you expect anyone to have a conversation with you when you so woefully misrepresent what anyone else has to say?

I don't think it is a misrepresentation. The evidence I presented has been dismissed, trumped by your and others' anecdotes or "alternative explanations", for which there is no way to argue against.

I don't know why.

Linda

Because they are fair and give straightforward answers to questions.

ETA: Oh, and just in case you think I don't like you, I think you are a nice person and, from what I can gather, an excellent doctor.
 
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IYour reasoning in this thread has been to remove all significant meaning from the word 'paternalism' to allow you to claim it means the same as 'beneficence'.
OK, apologies for reviving this, and apologies if I have missed any of the nuances in this lengthy thread but...

Ivor, do you believe that there is absolutely no place for "doctor knows best"? Are there any circumstances when you think that a doctor should insist on a course of treatment if they know the patient is wrong? (assuming of course that the patient is of sound mind).

Yuri
 
OK, apologies for reviving this, and apologies if I have missed any of the nuances in this lengthy thread but...

Ivor, do you believe that there is absolutely no place for "doctor knows best"? Are there any circumstances when you think that a doctor should insist on a course of treatment if they know the patient is wrong? (assuming of course that the patient is of sound mind).

Yuri

Given your assumption, the only times I would think it appropriate for a doctor to actively (rather than passively) override the preferences of a patient would be if there was a significant threat to public health, or if a patient was unable to communicate and a proxy was making decisions for the patient's care which would result in harm.
 
Given your assumption, the only times I would think it appropriate for a doctor to actively (rather than passively) override the preferences of a patient would be if there was a significant threat to public health, or if a patient was unable to communicate and a proxy was making decisions for the patient's care which would result in harm.
Why the distinction between active and passive overriding of preferences - is passive more acceptible, does it imply a degree of patient involvement?

Apart from public health, what if there was a threat to individuals close to the patient (say with a mental health issue (tho I suppose that isn't in the 'sound mind' category) or a sexually transmitted disease) or, particularly, what if the doctor felt (or believed they knew for certain) that the patient was at risk of death or serious, permanent disability by not following their advice? Would any of this be a reason for the doc to insist on a patient following the doc's. chosen protocol and lay down the law as it were?

This is all independent of how exactly the doc could insist or ensure that course was followed.

Yuri
 
Why the distinction between active and passive overriding of preferences - is passive more acceptible, does it imply a degree of patient involvement?

A doctor has the right to not provide treatment to a patient if they believe it will be harmful or medically pointless.

Apart from public health, what if there was a threat to individuals close to the patient (say with a mental health issue (tho I suppose that isn't in the 'sound mind' category) or a sexually transmitted disease) or, particularly, what if the doctor felt (or believed they knew for certain) that the patient was at risk of death or serious, permanent disability by not following their advice?

If there's a risk to others then there is a risk to public health. How many 'others' need to be at risk is up for debate.

If the risk is only to the individual and he/she is considered of sound mind, then no, doctors have no right to override what they may consider to be a sub-optimal or harmful choice by the patient.

Would any of this be a reason for the doc to insist on a patient following the doc's. chosen protocol and lay down the law as it were?

<snip>

I don't think so. The doctor can appeal to the patient to change his/her mind, or get a court to rule the person of unsound mind.

Probably my last post tonight. Catch you tomorrow.;)
 
A reminder that GMC guidance exists for doctors in the UK, including good medical practice and the duties of a doctor.
These do not cover all eventualities but serve as a template for good ethical practice.

Also possibly of relevance here is the Mental Capacity act, which states;
Five key principles of the Mental Capacity Act

  • Principle 1: Capacity should always be assumed. A patient’s diagnosis, behaviour, or appearance should not lead you to presume capacity is absent
  • Principle 2: A person’s ability to make decisions must be optimised before concluding that capacity is absent. All practicable steps must be taken, such as giving sufficient time for assessments; repeating assessments if capacity is fluctuating; and, if relevant, using interpreters, sign language, or pictures
  • Principle 3: Patients are entitled to make unwise decisions. It is not the decision but the process by which it is reached that determines if capacity is absent
  • Principle 4: Decisions (and actions) made for people lacking capacity must be in their best interests
  • Principle 5: Such decisions must also be the least restrictiveoption(s) for their basic rights and freedoms
Further guidance on capacity and how to assess it here.
 
Believing in Treatments That Don’t Work

As Washington debates health care reform, emergency room physician Dr. David H. Newman explores how medical ideology often gets in the way of evidence-based medicine.

By David H. Newman, M.D.

In the early throes of a heart attack, caused by an abruptly clotted artery, the stunned heart often beats quickly and forcefully. For decades doctors have administered “beta-blockers” as a remedy, to reduce consumption of limited oxygen supplies by calming and slowing the straining heart. Giving these drugs in the early stages of a heart attack represents elegant medical ideology.

But it doesn’t work.

Studies show that the early administration of beta-blockers to heart attack victims does not save lives, and occasionally causes dangerous heart failure. While two studies support the use of beta-blockers after heart attack, there are 26 studies that found no survival benefit to administering beta-blockers early on. Moreover, in 2005, the largest, best study of the drugs showed that beta-blockers in the vulnerable, early hours of heart attacks did not save lives, but did cause a definite increase in heart failure.

Remarkably, the medical community has continued to strongly recommend immediate beta-blocker treatment. Why? Because according to the theory of the straining heart, the treatment makes sense. It should work, even though it doesn’t. Ideology trumps evidence.

The practice of medicine contains countless examples of elegant medical theories that belie the best available evidence.

Recent press reports detailing the dangers of cough syrup for children have noted that cough syrup doesn’t work. True: No cough remedies have ever been proven better than a placebo, either for adults or children. Yet their use is common.
Patients with ear infections are more likely to be harmed by antibiotics than helped. While the pills may cause a small decrease in symptoms (for which ear drops work better), the infections typically recede within days regardless of treatment. The same is true for bronchitis, sinusitis, and sore throats. Unnecessary antibiotics are still given to more than one in seven Americans each year for these conditions alone, at a cost of more than $2 billion and tens of thousands of serious adverse medication effects requiring treatment.
Back surgeries to relieve pain are, in the majority of cases, no better than nonsurgical treatment. Yet doctors perform 600,000 of these surgeries each year, at a cost of over $20 billion.
More than a half million Americans per year undergo arthroscopic surgery to correct osteoarthritis of the knee, at a cost of $3 billion. Despite this, studies show the surgery to be no better than sham knee surgery, in which surgeons “pretend” to do surgery while the patient is under light anesthesia. It is also no better than much cheaper, and much less invasive, physical therapy.
Treatment based on ideology is alluring. Surgeries to repair the knee should work. A syrup to reduce cough should help. Calming the straining heart should save lives. But the uncomfortable truth is that many expensive, invasive interventions are of little or no benefit and cause potentially uncomfortable, costly, and dangerous side effects and complications.

The critical question that looms for health care reform is whether patients, doctors and experts are prepared to set aside ideology in the face of data. Can we abide by the evidence when it tells us that antibiotics don’t clear ear infections or help strep throats? Can we stop asking for, and writing, these prescriptions? Can we stop performing, and asking for, knee and back surgeries? Can we handle what the evidence reveals? Are we ready for the truth?

The administration’s plan for reform includes identifying health care measures that work, and those that don’t. To place evidence above ideology, researchers and analysts must be trained in critical analysis, have no conflicts of interest and be a diverse group.

Perhaps most importantly, we as doctors and patients must be open to evidence. Pills and surgery are potent symbols of healing power, but our faith in these symbols has often blinded us to truths. Somewhere along the line, theory trumped reality. Administering a medicine or performing a surgery became more important than its effect.

. . .
 

It bothers me that there are quite a few errors in this article and the links provided for his claims often don't actually support the claim. But I think the point of his examples stands, even if not all of his examples are valid. However, I don't think the issue is ideology but simply responsiveness. Evidence trumps ideology and evidence changes practice. It just seems to be subject to a trickle-down effect whereby early adopters of new ideas tend to be those with primary expertise in the area; those who are in the best position to evaluate the validity of the information. These changes then trickle through the rest of the medical practitioners, following the path of least resistance.

The question isn't whether medicine will put aside ideology in the face of facts - it clearly will. The question is whether its responsiveness to facts strikes a reasonable balance. There are also concerns when new ideas are adopted too readily - off-label uses for drugs, unrecognized serious side-effects of new wonder drugs, rejection of prophylactic practices that were providing benefit, etc. And doesn't the need to reverse recommendations that were made on too little data also erode confidence in physicians?

Linda
 
In general, for those who are interested, in Canada, a Physician can commit to a hospital against his or her will, any person who is deemed by that physician, to be a danger to:

(A) his/herself
(B) others
(C) his/her property

This committal will only stand for 24 hours without the signature of a second physician. This committal is enforceable by Law Enforcement, when needed.

TAM:)
 
In general, for those who are interested, in Canada, a Physician can commit to a hospital against his or her will, any person who is deemed by that physician, to be a danger to:

(A) his/herself
(B) others
(C) his/her property
This committal will only stand for 24 hours without the signature of a second physician. This committal is enforceable by Law Enforcement, when needed.

TAM:)

That's a bit of a catch-all, isn't it?:)
 
It bothers me that there are quite a few errors in this article and the links provided for his claims often don't actually support the claim. But I think the point of his examples stands, even if not all of his examples are valid. However, I don't think the issue is ideology but simply responsiveness. Evidence trumps ideology and evidence changes practice. It just seems to be subject to a trickle-down effect whereby early adopters of new ideas tend to be those with primary expertise in the area; those who are in the best position to evaluate the validity of the information. These changes then trickle through the rest of the medical practitioners, following the path of least resistance.

The question isn't whether medicine will put aside ideology in the face of facts - it clearly will. The question is whether its responsiveness to facts strikes a reasonable balance. There are also concerns when new ideas are adopted too readily - off-label uses for drugs, unrecognized serious side-effects of new wonder drugs, rejection of prophylactic practices that were providing benefit, etc. And doesn't the need to reverse recommendations that were made on too little data also erode confidence in physicians?

Linda

Good points. I'm not in any position myself to evaluate whether medical info was correct.
 
In general, for those who are interested, in Canada, a Physician can commit to a hospital against his or her will, any person who is deemed by that physician, to be a danger to:

(A) his/herself
(B) others
(C) his/her property

This committal will only stand for 24 hours without the signature of a second physician. This committal is enforceable by Law Enforcement, when needed.

TAM:)
While it is state specific, the US requirements are similar:
1)Danger to him/herself
2)Danger to others
3)Inability to take care of self

I don't get the danger to his/her property. It is usually a civil/criminal matter.
 
While it is state specific, the US requirements are similar:
1)Danger to him/herself
2)Danger to others
3)Inability to take care of self

I don't get the danger to his/her property. It is usually a civil/criminal matter.

It is there in order to commit manics who have gone on spending sprees, among other things, IIRC. Of course, I should have stated that the patient in question must also be, in the eyes of said physician, to be suffering from a mental disorder, and hence not capable of voluntarily stopping said actions against his/her property.

TAM:)
 
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To be honest I am not sure if the "property" application is still in use. I personally have never used it, and the last time I saw it used was in 1998 when as a clinical clerk I was under the service of a psychiatrist who involuntarily committed a Bipolar patient for the "danger to property" clause, after he had spent his families life savings on a spree. He was no danger to himself personally, or others, but clearly was a danger to his and his families property.

TAM:)

Edit: I did a quick check, and here in Canada, it seems to vary from province to province.

TAM:)
 
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