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Why do prosecutors think like this?

Re: Re: Why do prosecutors think like this?

Originally posted by Mycroft
So the reason they oppose re-testing DNA evidence is not that they're opposed to discovering the "truth", but that truth has already been established by a verdict.
I would have put quotes around the other "truth". A verdict doesn't necessarily establish the real truth. As this case shows.

And a general comment:

How accurate are these DNA tests? If they are very accurate, why not do the following: Any prisoner can request one. If it shows he's innocent, the state pays for it. And he goes free, of course. If it shows he's guilty, he pays for it. If he can't afford it, his prison sentence is lengthened somewhat.

That would seem to establish the right incentives.
 
Tmy said:
No thats not the prosecutors job. thats why they have discretion to drop charges and not prosecute cases.

They are about putting the guilty behind bars. Obvioulsy they believed that this was the right guy. If they didnt they wouldnve had him tried.

The prosecuters main job is to get re-elected. That means closing cases. That means picking the cases that are in fact prosecuted. It is not clear that justice, per se, is anything more than an add on and nice when it happens.
 
Ed said:
The prosecuters main job is to get re-elected. That means closing cases. That means picking the cases that are in fact prosecuted. It is not clear that justice, per se, is anything more than an add on and nice when it happens.

Well, that's the nice, cynical answer, isn't it, Ed? Too bad it's not accurate.

LegalPenguin addressed this very well in his response. Prosecutors are attorneys. As such, they are bound by the same rules of professional conduct and ethics as are all other attorneys in their jurisdictions, with one crucial difference. Prosecutors do in fact have an additional duty beyond that imposed upon all other lawyers. That additional duty is to seek justice in the criminal matters they handle. That does in fact mean that it is a prosecutor's duty not to prosecute an accused whom the prosecutor knows to be not guilty. When the prosecutor is presented with exculpatory evidence, he or she has a duty to disclose the same to the defense. There is no reciprocal duty for a defense attorney to disclose evidence of the defendant's guilt to the prosecutor.

Thus, a prosecutor has a unique additional duty among attorneys.

AS
 
LegalPenguin said:
One of the Justices asked whether in the absence of the Court finding a constitutional violation, the state was suggesting that "even if we find Mr Amrine is actually innocent, he should be executed?" The assistant attorney general replied, "That’s correct, your honour".
(...snip...)
Which is sick, plain and simple.
It's not only sick; I submit that it is unconstitutional. The purpose of the courts is to establish justice. The Preamble to the Constitution states that one of the purposes of government, and the Constitution that describes its role, is to "establish justice."

Executing a man known to be innocent is manifestly, inexcusably, insanely unjust. How anyone can argue that it squares with the purpose of the courts, government, and the Constitution, is beyond me. It belongs in the realm of paranormal claims, along with astrology, psychic surgery, and talking cows.
 
LegalPenguin said:


Which is sick, plain and simple.

P.S. (in response to the post about the role of the prosecutor)Yes, the job of the prosecutor is to pursue justice, not convict at all costs. In W.Va. our Supreme Court goes so far to call prosecutors "quasi-judicial officers" and the U.S. Supreme Court has held that the prosecutor has a duty to find any exculpatory evidence (evidence that would tend to prove innocence) obtained by any state actor investigating the case and turn that over to the defense (called the Brady rule).

Yes, very sick. That attorney general should be executed.
 
Ed said:
The prosecuters main job is to get re-elected. That means closing cases. That means picking the cases that are in fact prosecuted. It is not clear that justice, per se, is anything more than an add on and nice when it happens.

Pretty much.

Setting aside notions about prosecutors being especially noble among all other lawyers because of their additional duty to seek justice, they are politicians or are employed by politicians looking to get re-elected, and they know that in order to keep their jobs, it is a good thing to have quantifiable results.

How far they are willing to go in pursuit of those numbers is influenced by the individuals and the nature of the organization.

And the superstitious icon called 'justice' may have given some people and some organizational cultures, a basis for attempting to shift the balance between a fair prosecution and a zealous defense , toward a zealous prosecution, which might be one of the factors that keeps the Innocence Project well stocked with clients.
 
AmateurScientist said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed
The prosecuters main job is to get re-elected. ....--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, that's the nice, cynical answer, isn't it, Ed? Too bad it's not accurate.

.... a prosecutor has a unique additional duty among attorneys.

AS

The prosecutor's duty is to act justly, but his job is to get re-elected. Sometimes, prosecutors look more to their jobs, than to their duties.


Talking to my English relatives, they thought the idea of electing prosecutors was absurd. I agree with them. It is one office where elections are counterproductive.
 
Saying "they want to get re-elected" is only part of the answer. The more difficult part is why they believe such behaviour makes it more likely they WILL get reelected.

Do the voters really want prosecutors who don't care if they get the wrong man, as long as they get someone?
 
The whole argument about cost is absurd. A paternity DNA test costs less than $500. The cost of keeping an innocent man in jail for a year is about $30,000. If the average sentence rescinded is about 5 years, one innocent finding saves the government $150,000. This would pay for 299 other tests.

I doubt that anyone believes that only 1 in 300 would be overturned. Of the people asking, I would bet on 1 in 5.

Another thing that has occurred is police departments destroying all the evidence to prevent retesting.

It is my opinion that the police departments and prosecutors believe they are locking up innocent men fairly frequently. The idea of having someone test their results is very scary to them.

CBL
 
Jaggy Bunnet said:
Saying "they want to get re-elected" is only part of the answer. The more difficult part is why they believe such behaviour makes it more likely they WILL get reelected.

Do the voters really want prosecutors who don't care if they get the wrong man, as long as they get someone?

Apparently the voters want exactly the prosecutors they have.

And how does a prosecutor do the other parts of their job, if they fail at the getting re-elected part?
 
Prosecutors

Ha, I have had friends in the justice system, and I can tell you that the last thing that they are there for is justice.

They are there to find the person guilty. They do not even consider or care if they are innocent. If there is not evidence, then they will manufacture and spin some evidence.

As a result, there are most likely thousands of falsely convicted people in prison.

And if you look at cases that are mostly circumstantial the statistics for false convictions would probably be staggering.

It makes them look bad when years later DNA evidence shows innocense. They do not like this at all. Unless you have a DA, with character, and they are few and far between, they are not going to support anything that may get a case overturned. That's just the way the system works.

The DA is there to put people away. Not to find justice. Truse me.
 
Meadmaker said:
The prosecutor's duty is to act justly, but his job is to get re-elected. Sometimes, prosecutors look more to their jobs, than to their duties.


Talking to my English relatives, they thought the idea of electing prosecutors was absurd. I agree with them. It is one office where elections are counterproductive.

Well, putting the issue back into context, the poster named "Otther" asked what a prosecutor's job was. By definition, his duties are included in any description of his job.

We're really talking about semantics here. No one seems to disagree that elected prosecutors and their underlings feel political pressure to keep up their numbers of "successful" prosecutions. In that context, "successful" usually means a conviction and a jail or prison sentence. Answering Otther's question with a cynical response about his job being about getting re-elected is disingenuous and non-responsive.

Otther didn't ask with what is the prosecutor pre-occupied. He asked what his job is. Legal Penguin gave a good answer and mentioned the prosecutor's additional duties with respect to seeking justice. He's right, and I elaborated on that aspect.

I deal with prosecutors every week, and in fact just yesterday I served as a prosecutor for a nearby municipality in my county's circuit court. I understand the political pressure to keep up good numbers, but an attorney is supposed to uphold his professional duties and obligations above all others. That includes above political pressures put upon him. That is his job. Whether any given prosecutor actually lives up to that duty and upholds that job 24/7 is another matter. That's not what Otther asked, however.

Although it might be in the elected prosecutor's own best interests to seek to get re-elected, it is certainly not the job of a prosecutor to get re-elected. That may be his or her ambition--and that's fine with me--but it's not his job.

There is an important distinction there.

AS
 
Originally posted by AmateurScientist
There is an important distinction there
I totally agree that there is an important distiction but I do not agree with what it seems you are implying. (If I am making an incorrect inference, I apologize in advance)

I agree that a prosecutor job is not to convict people. It is not even to convict guilty people. It is to uphold the rights of defendants, practice according to the rule of law and, given those restrictions, convict guilty people.

However, a prosecutor is rewarded by the voters for convicting people especially in high profile cases. A prosecutor who fails to convict or fails to try people is generally punished by the voters. Guilt or innocence and judicial propriety are mostly irrellevant. Convictions are what matters.

When a person is punished for doing his job correctly, there is a problem. That is currently the case for both prosecutors, judges and police.

CBL
 
Is there a possibility of the people responsible for this man's wrongful conviction being held accountable?

Shouldn't the state, prosecutor and police department be held to account for wrongful convictions? I think so, it would give them an incentive to make sure they have the right guy and it would provide justice to the wrongly imprisoned.
 
Originally posted by Tony
Shouldn't the state, prosecutor and police department be held to account for wrongful convictions? I think so, it would give them an incentive to make sure they have the right guy and it would provide justice to the wrongly imprisoned.
Clearly they shoud be but no one on the government payroll has any incentive to do so.

I think there should be a special juduicial auditing department whose only purpose is to overturn convictions. It should be an unelected position and the people should be rewarded according to how many conviction are overturned. In addition, there should be a standard reward for any private citizen for overturning a conviction. Perhaps $20,000 per year of conviction overturned would be appropriate.

These would provide a valuable check on the police, prosecutors and judges. Unfortunately, there is no generally desire to check on the appropriateness of convictions.

CBL
 
CBL4 said:
These would provide a valuable check on the police, prosecutors and judges. Unfortunately, there is no generally desire to check on the appropriateness of convictions.


It's good to know that "...with liberty and justice for all" is just as much BS as "land of the free". In terms of justice and personal freedom, this country is just a few steps better than a tin-pot dictatorship.
 
Mycroft said:
I think the philosophy here is that there is supposed to be an end point to a trial. Once a person is convicted, his guilt is established and you don't need to look at the case again until he's up for parole or released.

You're not supposed to go looking for new evidence after the trial is over. The time to do that is before the trial.

The alternative is a system where every person in prison represents a continuing on-going trial, where they can have state paid for defenders constantly filing appeals until they get lucky and overturn the first conviction.

So the reason they oppose re-testing DNA evidence is not that they're opposed to discovering the "truth", but that truth has already been established by a verdict.

You make a significant point; but there are limits to the proposition of after-trial exoneration. During a trial, the defense need merely prove that there is a reasonable doubt of the defendant's guilt--if the defense fails, there is a conviction.

If new evidence to be presented followed that same burden of proof, you would be correct--no trial would truly be over. But once the conviction is in place, the burden of proof is reversed--and that puts the true limit on appeals based on facts. Most appeals are procedural or based on legal theory--if I understand correctly appeals courts are extremely reluctant to reverse findings of fact in the original trial. In order to present new evidence, it must be better than information that would simply cast doubt--it must be positive evidence that the defendant did not commit the crime... evidence of "actual innocence" as it were. As this is harder to come by than evidence of "reasonable doubt", one can allow it without post-trial introductions of new evidence overwhelming the system--and serve true justice at the same time.
 
CBL4 said:
I totally agree that there is an important distiction but I do not agree with what it seems you are implying. (If I am making an incorrect inference, I apologize in advance)

I don't know what you think I'm implying.


I agree that a prosecutor job is not to convict people. It is not even to convict guilty people. It is to uphold the rights of defendants, practice according to the rule of law and, given those restrictions, convict guilty people.

A prosecutor's job, broadly speaking, is to represent the government, the state, or the municipality for whom he or she is working in prosecuting alleged crimes committed within its jurisdiction.

Although I wouldn't have phrased it quite the way you do, I think it is accurate to include within his or her duties to uphold the rights of criminal defendants. I suppose that is simply another way of stating that a prosecutor must seek justice and help to ensure that the defendant gets a fair trial.

Nevertheless, our American judicial process, based on the English system, is an adversarial one. That means there are two opposing sides and a neutral judge and/or jury. Since the prosecutor represents the state, the defense attorney is the one who zealously advocates his or her client's position and who is primarily concerned with protecting his or her procedural and substantive rights.

In practice, things tend to get muddy. In practice, prosecutors seldom seem too interested in upholding an accused's rights. In practice, many prosecutors adopt a posture that everyone brought before the court is guilty.

Those can be very dangerous positions if the interests of justice are to be served. It is when prosecutors forget their duty to seek justice and to ensure fairness in the process that we sometimes get manifest and grave injustices such as those LegalPenguin notes.


However, a prosecutor is rewarded by the voters for convicting people especially in high profile cases. A prosecutor who fails to convict or fails to try people is generally punished by the voters. Guilt or innocence and judicial propriety are mostly irrellevant. Convictions are what matters.

When a person is punished for doing his job correctly, there is a problem. That is currently the case for both prosecutors, judges and police.

CBL

Well, there is no doubt that authorities in law enforcement can often feel political pressure to obtain a conviction, especially, as you note, in so-called high profile cases. Unfortunately, the public sometimes gets carried away with emotion and rhetoric, and wants to see someone--sometimes anyone--convicted for a particularly heinous offense. The classic example is the prosecution of Bruno Hauptmann for the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby.

By nearly all accounts, Hauptmann's trial was hardly a model of fairness. It was probably the real "trial of the century," even bigger than the Scopes trial or that of O.J. Simpson. Can you imagine the opportuning and grandstanding that went on, given that at the time Charles Lindbergh was probably the best known and best loved international celebrity, and that his 20-month old baby boy had been snatched from his home in the night? Passions were especially high given that Hauptmann was German and had a cold, disaffected demeanor, and the trial took place in the US in 1935, when anti-German sentiment was still held over from the Great War.

AS
 
Originally posted by AmateurScientist
I don't know what you think I'm implying.
I thought you were implying that the ideal matched reality. From your subsequent post, it is clear that I misinterpreted your view. I think we agree that there is a gap but we probably disagree with the size of the gap.

This is probably due to personal experience. Both of my brushes (jury duty and a clearly innocent relative being convicted) with the justice system have shown it to be anything but just.

CBL
 
CBL4 said:

This is probably due to personal experience. Both of my brushes (jury duty and a clearly innocent relative being convicted) with the justice system have shown it to be anything but just.


You have an relative who was wrongly convicted? What happened?
 

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