Why are things beautiful?

[Piggy]

Simple question: Why are things beautiful?

I wonder, are there creatures out there on some other planet who wake up, go outside, and find the universe unbearably ugly?

Now, let me point out that I'm posting this in the science forum rather than the philosophy forum. I'm not posing a philosophical question. (As some of you know, I have no patience for philosophy.)

From a scientific point of view, why is it that we should find our world so often beautiful, even overwhelmingly so, even at times when it is attempting to destroy us? Storms, eruptions, and catastrophes are often awesomely beautiful.

I try to make time every day, weather permitting, to sit out on my porch and watch the clouds and the birds and the trees. It's quite fulfilling.

But why?

I'm not looking for a definitive answer, tho I'd love it if someone provided one. Just interested in a dialog, and hopefully some nice linkies to interesting studies.

I hope others are interested in this topic as well.

 

[I Ratant]

"..the eye of the beholder." has a large bearing on what people consider beautiful.
It's really a personal thing.
Possibly it's learned at Mom's knee, and personal experience adds to the list of things beautiful.
And perceptions.
I appreciate large (or small) mechanical devices that work well.
I love to observe the female human body. Some are delightful, some are euuuuuuuuuu!
Depends.

 

[Akhenaten]

I don't have the background to add anything scientific, I'm afraid, so I'll get in with my thoughts before the serious discussion starts.


Second Thought

Perhaps the beauty that we see in a Universe that's out to kill us is a result of our love for identifying patterns. Seeking to explain those patterns is how we come by knowledge.

Creatures might evolve which don't incorporate this pattern-seeking, and see the Universe as a jumbled mess. They would possibly, in the course of seeking ways to clear away the ugliness, acquire exactly the same knowledge as us.

We sometimes like to think that we (and usually the ETs) are evolving as an explorer species, but it's not too hard to imagine a destroyer species, especially if you like a little science fiction.


Third Thought

If a species is capable of identifying "ugly", I would think it logical that they could also conceive "beautiful", and simply apply those terms as subjectively as we do, but to different things. Even chaos might appear beautiful to some.


First thought

The first thing I thought of when I read your post was "Vogons".



Cheers,

Dave

 

[Piggy]

"..the eye of the beholder." has a large bearing on what people consider beautiful.
It's really a personal thing.
Possibly it's learned at Mom's knee, and personal experience adds to the list of things beautiful.
And perceptions.
I appreciate large (or small) mechanical devices that work well.
I love to observe the female human body. Some are delightful, some are euuuuuuuuuu!
Depends.

Yes, but the fact remains that the perception of beauty is universal. We all participate in beauty.

And it need not have been so.

Why is it that we find anything beautiful?

And when you get down to it, there are universals. No matter where you are, when you stand on a mountain and look out over a pristine waterfall emerging from a forest, that's beautiful.

Why?

 

[Reality Check]

Yes, but the fact remains that the perception of beauty is universal. We all participate in beauty.

And it need not have been so.

Why is it that we find anything beautiful?

And when you get down to it, there are universals. No matter where you are, when you stand on a mountain and look out over a pristine waterfall emerging from a forest, that's beautiful.

Why?

The fact is that the perception of beauty is universal - but what is actually beautiful is subjective.

Perhaps you question should be: Why are some thing more beautiful than other things to some people?

The answer could be that things are different and our brains sort things into categories according to those differences. Our brains then labels some of the categories "beautiful", i.e. more pleasing than other categories.

So to summarize - things are beautiful because our brains say thay are beautiful.
Even your waterfall example is subjective. IMHO the concept of nature being beautiful is a fairly modern idea.

 

[Piggy]

The fact is that the perception of beauty is universal - but what is actually beautiful is subjective.

Perhaps you question should be: Why are some thing more beautiful than other things to some people?

The answer could be that things are different and our brains sort things into categories according to those differences. Our brains then labels some of the categories "beautiful", i.e. more pleasing than other categories.

Oh, no, that's absolutely not my question. That's a different question entirely, and would be a separate thread.

We could have evolved without any concept of beauty.

So why is it that we all have one?

That's the topic here.

 

[Reality Check]

Oh, no, that's absolutely not my question. That's a different question entirely, and would be a separate thread.

We could have evolved without any concept of beauty.

So why is it that we all have one?

That's the topic here.

Can you define beauty?

 

[Piggy]

Can you define beauty?

Do I need to?

I mean, seriously. Is there some doubt about the meaning of the OP?

If not, then please, let's not get into that derail.

Do you have any real doubt that the concept of beauty exists in all cultures?

 

[logical muse]

I thought this was quite well established. It's a byproduct of the evolutionary process that led to successful mate selection (symmetry, disease-free, etc) and food evaluation.

 

[tesscaline]

My opinion is that finding things beautiful is an evolved mechanism. After all, those humans who find nothing in life beautiful or wonderful often are the ones that end up with no will to live. Many of them commit suicide, or merely cease to thrive. Thus, those people who see beauty in the world, who see the world as something wonderful that should be enjoyed, are the ones who live on to procreate.

But, that's just my opinion. It's not even a very well thought out one at that. Feel free to expand upon it if you wish

 

[Akhenaten]

Yes, but the fact remains that the perception of beauty is universal. We all participate in beauty.

And it need not have been so.

Why is it that we find anything beautiful?

And when you get down to it, there are universals. No matter where you are, when you stand on a mountain and look out over a pristine waterfall emerging from a forest, that's beautiful.

Why?

I don't think I can agree with the universality of beauty idea.

For example, a superstitious fellow living in the forest not far from your pristine waterfall may envisage it in his dreams as a great, roaring, ugly beast.

Even if he were to see the falls, his lifelong fear would prevent him from seeing the beauty that you and I would see.

 

[HawaiiBigSis]

And when you get down to it, there are universals. No matter where you are, when you stand on a mountain and look out over a pristine waterfall emerging from a forest, that's beautiful.

While I agree that to my eyes and brain and understanding your example is beautiful, and I really have nothing to add to the discussion at this point, I will argue about beauty's universalness.

I was discussing with a friend while overlooking a scene of unsurpassing beauty that beauty. He looked around at it, and said, "It's beautiful?" He truly did not think of it in those terms. To him, it was a rocky shoreline, and it looked treacherous to walk along, so of what use was it? And the waves were crashing into it adding to the danger and merely rendering it wet. The forest that backed it up didn't look any sort of appealing to him. I did manage to get him to agree that the shades of blue created by the various depths of the water and the foaming water churning around and the crystal clear blue of the sky were attractive (it probably helped that blue is his favorite color), and he was willing to admit the shades of green in the backing forest were also pretty where the light and darkness created an interplay, but he truly did not see it as beautiful.

His definitions and examples of beautiful were far more practical and laid more along the lines of functionality.

I didn't get it then, and I don't get it now, but I don't think everybody sees stuff the same.

On the other hand, I do agree that most people have some sort of definition of something as beautiful. I agree that it probably evolved in some manner so as to make things appealing and others less so.

Perhaps in the consideration of landscapes, it's to do with their hospitality as locations for home and all of its comforts. Certainly, as has been mentioned, and I believe has been documented, in people it's to do with mate selection.

 

[Reality Check]

Do I need to?

I mean, seriously. Is there some doubt about the meaning of the OP?

If not, then please, let's not get into that derail.

Do you have any real doubt that the concept of beauty exists in all cultures?

Yes there is doubt because you have not defined "beautiful" and so we could be discussing any definition of it.
For example how do we measure beauty so that we can compare the "beautifulness" of things? (remember this is the science forum - any studies need that definition in order to test it).

But if you just want nice linkies then try this TED talk: Murray Gell-Mann on beauty and truth in physics

 

[Seren_]

Yes, but the fact remains that the perception of beauty is universal. We all participate in beauty.

And it need not have been so.

Why is it that we find anything beautiful?

And when you get down to it, there are universals. No matter where you are, when you stand on a mountain and look out over a pristine waterfall emerging from a forest, that's beautiful.

Why?

I agree with Logical Muse.

Why do most people find babies beautiful ?
Why do most men find young women with large hips beautiful ?

Even your waterfall example makes sense rationnaly, a place with a source of fresh water nearby is a good place to establish a camp / farm / hamlet...

On the other hand you can probably find counter examples, e.g most people find arid sand deserts beautiful. It is a bit harder to find a benefit there. It maybe comes from our love of empty places where there is less competition for ressources. Still you can probably explain 80% of the cases by evolution alone.

 

[H'ethetheth]

I agree with Logical Muse.

Why do most people find babies beautiful ?
Why do most men find young women with large hips beautiful ?

Even your waterfall example makes sense rationnaly, a place with a source of fresh water nearby is a good place to establish a camp / farm / hamlet...

On the other hand you can probably find counter examples, e.g most people find arid sand deserts beautiful. It is a bit harder to find a benefit there. It maybe comes from our love of empty places where there is less competition for ressources. Still you can probably explain 80% of the cases by evolution alone.

I agree. In fact, I think the explanation for 100% of it should be in evolution, since it's all neurological hardwiring to reward certain responses to certain situations. Though quite probably some of these origins lie so far back in evolutionary history that their benefit is difficult if not impossible to establish, and some of it may not even be relevant anymore at all.

 

[GlennB]

I agree with the whole 'evolutionary benefit' gist, and would add that humour might fit the same mould. A long time ago the species might have been benefited by those who noticed patterns and connections, especially new ones. Flexibility, imagination and new perceptions are a good thing.
The first time a chimp 'thought' to shove a stick in a tree stump to winkle out the beautiful tasty termites there was probably chimpish laughter and wonderment all round

 

[Bikewer]

Logical Muse indicates an evolutionary aspect; I'm inclined to agree. We were at the zoo a couple of years ago looking at the pygmy marmosets. The little guys were fascinated to the point of fixation with my wife's ring which had a large and flashy stone...

Certain birds (like the bower bird) build elaborate mating displays, and other male bower birds steal choice bits to put into their own displays. Obviously, those bits of rock and feather are "better" in some way....
Our most primitive ancestors engaged in art and music, and decorated their belongings in various ways; this must indicate something innate, no?
Pattern recognition, symmetry...

In art there are basic principals of layout and design which have almost universal appeal; the "S" curve, the "golden ratio"....You'd think that these things speak to us on a very basic level.

 

[volatile]

I'm not posing a philosophical question.

Yes, you are.

 

[Careyp74]

I would have to agree with an earlier post that a definition of beauty is needed for this discussion. Not so much for your responses, Piggy, but others are starting to stray from my idea of "finding something beautiful." Waterfalls to me are amazing, but I don't find them beautiful. Expanses of desert with different hues of color at sunset is equally amazing and colorful, but is it beautiful? I don't know, what exactly is being beautiful? Appealing to the eye? Every animal has this if the latter is the right definition.

 

[Piggy]

I thought this was quite well established. It's a byproduct of the evolutionary process that led to successful mate selection (symmetry, disease-free, etc) and food evaluation.

But you can have that without a global sense of beauty, which often finds very asymmetrical and even chaotic scenes overwhelmingly beautiful.

Birds do the things you describe. But do they sit up in the trees at sunrise and have the equivalent experience of, "Oh my God, the sky is so amazingly gorgeous this morning!"?