Who do you fear more?

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

If they took complete control of the country?

Islam

Christianity

Well, as I prefer those inclined towards Theocratic tendencies to take control of the country (as opposed to cities or large towns where Theocracies would do more harm than in the country) I would have to choose


Islam... no!Christianity! Aaaaaaahhh!

 

[Ravenwood]

I think it would be very interesting if a giant magical lion took control of the country.

Oh!...Sorry!....You said Islam?!?

My mistake.

thanks H3LL, it took me 15 minutes to clean all the mountain dew out of my keyboard

 

[Roadtoad]

If I have to choose, I'm moving to Australia.

All kidding aside, while I'm more familiar with Christianity, and would therefore fear it less, I'm not in favor of ANY form of fascism, regardless of its purported good intentions for the rest of us.

I want my doctor to be well versed in the best of science, not intelligent design or ancient cosmology.

I want the justice system to function with a high degree of mercy towards all, and not be unbalanced in the direction of abuse of those convicted, because frankly, we make mistakes.

I want my children to be as educated as possible, because quite frankly, I want them to be able to acheive their best, not only for themselves, but for society at large, and not be limited by some mysterious insistance that knowledge is only for "the chosen."

Sorry if this is a derail, but that's where I stand.

 

[The GM]

If they took complete control of the country?

Islam

Christianity

Wow, just out of curiousity, JG, how do questions like this support: "Be part of the JREF web community by engaging in intelligent discussions with both skeptics and non-skeptics from around the globe. "

I mean, key-rist, you may as well have asked who do you fear more, ch*nks or n*ggers, fags or lesbos, b*tches or whores...
Yeah, I know you struggle w/ religion on a personal level (w/ the family and all) but wow, take a step back and look at how this post looks to an apostate or vaguely religious Christian who takes a stroll through here. Very insulting, and not terribly conducive to opening discussions or minds for that matter.
I'm not trying to be mean here, but c'mon, man. Why stir the pot with something so inflamatory?

Editted to add:
The reason my language is so strong here is to illustrate what I personally felt was an insulting and derogatory title and OP, designed to illicit responses that were generally jockular and derogatory towards those of a religious bent. If I have perceived this wrongly, I appologize in advance. If not, then my questions stand.
Thanks.

 

[jimmygun]

Re: Re: Who do you fear more?

Wow, just out of curiousity, JG, how do questions like this support: "Be part of the JREF web community by engaging in intelligent discussions with both skeptics and non-skeptics from around the globe. "

I mean, key-rist, you may as well have asked who do you fear more, ch*nks or n*ggers, fags or lesbos, b*tches or whores...
Yeah, I know you struggle w/ religion on a personal level (w/ the family and all) but wow, take a step back and look at how this post looks to an apostate or vaguely religious Christian who takes a stroll through here. Very insulting, and not terribly conducive to opening discussions or minds for that matter.
I'm not trying to be mean here, but c'mon, man. Why stir the pot with something so inflamatory?

Editted to add:
The reason my language is so strong here is to illustrate what I personally felt was an insulting and derogatory title and OP, designed to illicit responses that were generally jockular and derogatory towards those of a religious bent. If I have perceived this wrongly, I appologize in advance. If not, then my questions stand.
Thanks.

As a student of history and having lived it for 57 years I have seen the coming of radical Islamic governments. Christians pooh-pooh them pointing to the brutality and sadistic practices. In the past Christians have had a rather dismall track record when it comes to putting people to the torch. Most whom I have talked to say it would be better to live under a government of radical Christians than one of radical Muslims. I simply posted here to get the opinions of the members of this board. After a few smart-ass answers it settled down to a lively discussion of people's opinions.

As for your post...I cannot understand how you equate an honest political/religious question with those names you bring up. Perhaps you have not clearly stated your case, perhaps I am too thick-headed to get you gist. At any rate I must say that I am not happy that you link me with such words (they are yours, not mine, nor do they have anything to do with what I am trying to bring across).

If my portrayal of radical religious abuses is wrong, point out where and I will eat my words. However, I do not pull my punches because some one like you may be insulted where no insult is intended. Please defend your religion and point out where I am mistaken, instead of just trying to shout me down with your abusive language.

 

[jambo372]

Islam.
I read that they are conspiring to take over the world via mass immigration, executing/converting the natives of the countries they take over and forcing people to worship Allah.

When anyone sees what they are up to and tries to stop it they are accused of so called Racism.

 

[c4ts]

In what, a Chick tract?

 

[Beerina]

Members of this church are forbidden (on pain of excommunication and what amounts to "shunning") from borrowing money. This, in turn, makes it very difficult either for them to accumulate wealth through the usual channels (such as home ownership), or to attend good schools that incorporate student loans into their funding stream.

Isaac Asimov once suggested the dark ages were due to Christianity's throttle-hold on government. Specifically, the laws against "usury", which is to say, charging interest, kept the economies stagnant such that life was significantly worse than 1000 years earlier in Rome.

Yey, Jesus!

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Islam.
I read that they are conspiring to take over the world via mass immigration, executing/converting the natives of the countries they take over and forcing people to worship Allah.

When anyone sees what they are up to and tries to stop it they are accused of so called Racism.

I once read the same thign about the Quakers. They put drugs in the oatmeal to make us more docile, then record backwards messages behind Wilford Brimley's voice in the commercials. Scary.

 

[The GM]

Re: Re: Re: Who do you fear more?

If my portrayal of radical religious abuses is wrong, point out where and I will eat my words. However, I do not pull my punches because some one like you may be insulted where no insult is intended. Please defend your religion and point out where I am mistaken, instead of just trying to shout me down with your abusive language.

At no point did you ever say, 'radical', leaving the interpretation of what a Christian or Muslim is wide open (except that it must be a bad thing, as evidenced by the fact that we should fear *theeeem*.) Just struck me as a rather wide sweeping, negative, and flippant commentary about millions of believers world wide. Indeed, your language was strong and clearly prejudicial. Now, that's ok, if you want it to be.
As far as shouting you down, that's a wrong interpretation as evidenced by the fact that I said:
"I'm not trying to be mean here, but c'mon, man. Why stir the pot with something so inflamatory?

The reason my language is so strong here is to illustrate what I personally felt was an insulting and derogatory title and OP, designed to illicit responses that were generally jockular and derogatory towards those of a religious bent. If I have perceived this wrongly, I appologize in advance. If not, then my questions stand."

This hardly sounds like the words of someone trying to 'shout you down'.

As far as defending my religion, read my sig line.
OTOH, I am not automatically prejudiced against someone due to their personal faith beliefs, which if you only had the OP and title of this thread to go by, one could surmise that you feel the opposite, thus my questions. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my original post.

Edited to add: Oh, and why did I use such strong language and terms? Because it was my impression that you phrased your question in such a way that it sounded like Christian and Islam were dirty, foul words unto themselves. I could have mis-perceived this, and if I have, I appologized in advance.

 

[jimmygun]

My original question was "Who do you fear more...If they took complete control of the country?" A complete takeover of a country by any religious group would in my opinion be radical!

Tell me again why you introduced the words, ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, fags, etc into the conversation. Are these everyday words for you to use whenever you feel insulted or offended?

Just an observation but I think you are out looking to be offended so you can strike out with your terms of hatred. "Look at me, I used the N word!!!"

Your quote..."I'm not trying to be mean here, but c'mon, man. Why stir the pot with something so inflamatory?"

Yes you are trying to be mean by using those mean words that have nothing to do with what is going on. Pretending that you are so inflamed that you cannot help but use them is no excuse.

Why stir the pot? Because that is what I and hundreds of others do on this board. So inflamatory? Because politically correct crap doesn't ask. It just goes along, fearful of stepping on someone's toes. Some day perhaps the religious group you approve of will gain complete control and you can decide what will be said or asked or thought or done.

 

[jimmygun]

GM?

 

[The GM]

GM?

Cool your panties, JG. I have a life outside of the net and I wanted to digest your reply for a bit.
But at your request, here we go.

My original question was "Who do you fear more...If they took complete control of the country?" A complete takeover of a country by any religious group would in my opinion be radical!

What if it were done through democratic process? What if the best people for the job happened to be those of a religious bent? And what does complete mean? Are they mandating a certain religion? Do they just hold majority vote? Are they watching me while I’m in the bathroom? You tell me.

Tell me again why you introduced the words, ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, fags, etc into the conversation. Are these everyday words for you to use whenever you feel insulted or offended?

Scroll up.

Yes you are trying to be mean by using those mean words that have nothing to do with what is going on. Pretending that you are so inflamed that you cannot help but use them is no excuse.

Scroll up.

. Some day perhaps the religious group you approve of will gain complete control and you can decide what will be said or asked or thought or done.

Please provide evidence of my approving a particular religious group. A link where I said I supported one will do fine.

I’ll repeat my question for you. “Wow, just out of curiousity, JG, how do questions like this support: "Be part of the JREF web community by engaging in intelligent discussions with both skeptics and non-skeptics from around the globe. "

I’ll additionally add: Do you think being derogatory opens minds, or closes them? Or are you just trying to preach to the choir here and don’t give a hoot if you teach someone something new?

 

[jimmygun]

GM...I'm not sure we are even on the same forum here.

I will clarify it for you one more time...Who would you fear more, a radical fundementalist totalitarian Christian government or a radical fundementalist totalitarian Muslim government? I think most that read my original question would have gotten that gist.

Quote..."family and all) but wow, take a step back and look at how this post looks to an apostate or vaguely religious Christian who takes a stroll through here. Very insulting, and not terribly conducive to opening discussions or minds for that matter."

I assume from that passage that you are either of a particular religious bent or are putting yourself forward as a spokes person for one or all religions.

I don't understand why you think that my question is not valid for discussion. I happen to think it is very valid looking at the news and views of the world today. Knowing that the pendulum swings from one side to the other, I fully expect the religious Christian right to assume more power over our everyday lives. Should things get to a certain point ,there may even be a take over by the right (through a democratic election of course) and they have already expressed their views on what is acceptable to them and what will not be allowed. I simply asked for your opinions as to which of the two governments would be more scary.

Do I think being derogatory opens or closes minds? No, I think being derogatory is an indication of an already closed mind. To bring to a discussion those derogatory words that you (repeat...you) brought shows a decided lack of maturity.

I am not preaching to anyone here. I simply asked a simple question that I felt had merit. If you are offended by that question please try to tell me, in a civilized manner, why and maybe, just maybe I could begin to see your point.

 

[The GM]

GM...I'm not sure we are even on the same forum here.

Boy, you’re telling me. Mostly because I’m too lazy to type it out again, and you’re apparently too lazy to scroll up, let’s go through it again:

JG asks:

I will clarify it for you one more time...Who would you fear more, a radical fundementalist totalitarian Christian government or a radical fundementalist totalitarian Muslim government? I think most that read my original question would have gotten that gist.

GM wrote earlier:

At no point did you ever say, 'radical', leaving the interpretation of what a Christian or Muslim is wide open (except that it must be a bad thing, as evidenced by the fact that we should fear *theeeem*.) Just struck me as a rather wide sweeping, negative, and flippant commentary about millions of believers world wide. Indeed, your language was strong and clearly prejudicial. Now, that's ok, if you want it to be.

JG says:

I assume from that passage that you are either of a particular religious bent or are putting yourself forward as a spokes person for one or all religions.

GM wrote earlier:

Please provide evidence of my approving a particular religious group. A link where I said I supported one will do fine.

JG says:

I don't understand why you think that my question is not valid for discussion.

GM wrote earlier:

what I personally felt was an insulting and derogatory title and OP, designed to illicit responses that were generally jockular and derogatory towards those of a religious bent.

JG says:

Do I think being derogatory opens or closes minds? No, I think being derogatory is an indication of an already closed mind.

Interesting commentary in light of the title of the other thread you have going. It also proves my original thoughts that:

As far as defending my religion, read my sig line.
OTOH, I am not automatically prejudiced against someone due to their personal faith beliefs, which if you only had the OP and title of this thread to go by, one could surmise that you feel the opposite, thus my questions.

JG says:

To bring to a discussion those derogatory words that you (repeat...you) brought shows a decided lack of maturity.

I’m leaving that one alone, for now.

JG says:

I am not preaching to anyone here. I simply asked a simple question that I felt had merit. If you are offended by that question please try to tell me, in a civilized manner, why and maybe, just maybe I could begin to see your point.

GM wrote earlier:

Edited to add: Oh, and why did I use such strong language and terms? Because it was my impression that you phrased your question in such a way that it sounded like Christian and Islam were dirty, foul words unto themselves. I could have mis-perceived this, and if I have, I appologized in advance.

 

[geni]

My original question was "Who do you fear more...If they took complete control of the country?" A complete takeover of a country by any religious group would in my opinion be radical!

Not really VC isn't that radical. Consider the difference between a country run by the CofE style christianty and Rapture ready stlye christianity.

 

[jimmygun]

I am sincerely trying to understand you GM but the thickness of my skull must be interfering with your transmissions.

Let me clarify some things...

Are you of a particular religious bent or do you profess to speak on behalf of any or all religious groups?

Are you still personally insulted even after I have clarified that my question's intent was to instigate dialogue and gather opinions?

Why is my statement about derogatory remarks being indicative of a closed mind "Interesting commentary in light of the title of the other thread you have going. It also proves my original thoughts that:"? Please elaborate.

Where on earth do you get this from..."Because it was my impression that you phrased your question in such a way that it sounded like Christian and Islam were dirty, foul words unto themselves."? I never said the words Christianity and Muslim were dirty foul words unto themselves. I am talking about theocracy's where the church is in complete control. Again, simply a question as to which you and others feel is the most dangerous. Both have historically proven themselves to be evil in the extreme.

To make it completely clear...I do not consider the words Christianity and Muslim to be dirty foul words.

 

[MLynn]

If they took complete control of the country?

Islam

Christianity

At this time I would say extremist Islam. But I am a Christian, so "of course" I would say that.

Because of the First Amendment I think there is still enough diversity of religious/non-religious thought in the U.S. to provide checks and balances. If I can, I'll find statistics for what I just said.

I wonder if 40-50 years ago if religion played such a big role in politics.

Edited to add statistics: http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

 

[The GM]

I am sincerely trying to understand you GM but the thickness of my skull must be interfering with your transmissions.

Let me clarify some things...

Are you of a particular religious bent or do you profess to speak on behalf of any or all religious groups?

Nope. You can look this up in threads titled, 'Faith, Crisis and Miracles', 'Fundamentalism Blows', and more recently, 'The Power of Will.' Thus, my sig line.

Are you still personally insulted even after I have clarified that my question's intent was to instigate dialogue and gather opinions?

Nope, although to be clear, I thought it could have been phrased much more clearly. Never did you say, radical, totalitarian, regime, violent or anything of the sort. As a result, it left interepretations wide open. You could have meant anything. Hell, would it be *that* scary if my dear old granny and her church group took over the country? Not really, unless ice cream socials and quilting bees are terrifying to you.

Why is my statement about derogatory remarks being indicative of a closed mind "Interesting commentary in light of the title of the other thread you have going. It also proves my original thoughts that:"? Please elaborate.

You titled a thread (one which I'm not following, for the record) An insulting question for the religious set... Now, what does that say to any moderate that cruises by? Does that demean? Does that put them on the defensive and thus make them less apt to try to learn something new? The answer is yes. If the object of this forum is to engage "in intelligent discussions with both skeptics and non-skeptics from around the globe. " how can that be achieved if the stage is set for barbs to be tossed about? How does insulting straight off the bat forward what you're trying to express or teach others? That was always my main question.

Where on earth do you get this from..."Because it was my impression that you phrased your question in such a way that it sounded like Christian and Islam were dirty, foul words unto themselves."?

That was just my initial impression based on the way the title and OP were written. I stated up front that I could be mistaken, and if I were, that I was sorry for the misinterpretation.

To make it completely clear...I do not consider the words Christianity and Muslim to be dirty foul words.

Nods.
Good to hear.


edit: fixed tags

 

[jimmygun]

Quote..."Nope, although to be clear, I thought it could have been phrased much more clearly. Never did you say, radical, totalitarian, regime, violent or anything of the sort. As a result, it left interepretations wide open. You could have meant anything."

Could have meant anything? And you automatically assume that I was a biggotted, homophobic, misogynist (as per your words). If you had taken the trouble to ask my intent instead of lashing out you could have saved yourself some insult and offense. If you catch something zip by in the corner of your vision and don't know what it is do you automatically assume it to be a demon or space monster?


Quote..."You titled a thread (one which I'm not following, for the record) An insulting question for the religious set... Now, what does that say to any moderate that cruises by? Does that demean?"

Which you are not following! If you did read the thread you would see my explanation for the title of said thread but again you wish to jump to uninformed assumptions. Do your homework before you label please.

And now back to our regularily scheduled topic....