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White Cat Experiment

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: White Cat Experiment

Darat said:
Yep of course I am going on faith; my whole world view is based on faith (or assumptions) if you like.

To move away from solipsism (which itself even contains assumptions) I have to make assumptions, which are for me in very simple terms "I exist" and "there are other things that exist independent from me".

Given those assumptions or faith or as I’ve called them before “leaps of faith” I can construct a worldview that seems consistent and coherent. And in that worldview I don’t see any problem with your “white cat”.


That is a very interesting position position actually.

My own interpretation of that is that I know what I know from direct experience. I perceive a mental image, therefore I know the mental image exists. Whether it accurately represents (the cat) it's physical counterpart is another question all together....
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: White Cat Experiment

Darat said:
Apparently we do since my brain can be scanned and every time I'm told to think of something my brain reacts in a (roughly) similar way, so we see a physical process that always seem to occur when this "mental" process is happening. Again I'm not saying this is definite proof but it certainly to me hints that there are physical processes happening when I have "mental" experiences.

I totally agree that certain physical processes in the brain are accompanied my certain mental phenomena - I know what you are talking about. I might genuinely believe you when you say you experience a certain kind of mental phenomena in repeated brain experiments, but I can't prove that you are reallyexperiencing what you say, you are the only individual who has direct proof of what you are perceiving.
 
El Greco said:
I presented the analogy of a computer program: We can measure the electricity and the program displays a white cat on your screen. Electricity is electrochemical brain activity and "computer monitor" is "mental imagery". The white cat in your thoughts exists as much as the one on my screen.

I can confirm your claim that the computer is displaying something on the screen because I can observe it for myself and since I am the one doing the observing, I know my observation is not fabricated. I can scan all the physical activity in your brain, but all I am going to see is what's going on in your brain physically, I have no way of proving there is any mental image.
 
Re: Re: Re: White Cat Experiment

Filip Sandor said:


My mental image of a white cat is one such phenomenon. I have no physical evidence of it and I have never invented or observed any valid, physical theory that implies it exists... still I am 100% sure it exists because I am aware of it. [/B]

What "it"? A mental image of the cat or the cat itself?

Please read this brief article: The Krazy Kat Experiment

Then answer the question: Will Shirley die from the brick?

Yes or no?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: White Cat Experiment

CFLarsen said:
What "it"? A mental image of the cat or the cat itself?


Yes. I know the mental image exists because I perceive it.

Please read this brief article: The Krazy Kat Experiment

Then answer the question: Will Shirley die from the brick?

Yes or no?

According to Shirley's theory, she creates everything including your creation, which basically means she committed suicide I guess. The fact that you killed yourself doesn't matter because the brick was actually created by her.

The difference between me and her is that I don't believe I create everything I experience.
 
Filip Sandor said:
Yes. I know the mental image exists because I perceive it.

You're wrong, then: There is a valid, physical theory that describes that: Your brain creates the image.

Filip Sandor said:
According to Shirley's theory, she creates everything including your creation, which basically means she committed suicide I guess. The fact that you killed yourself doesn't matter because the brick was actually created by her.

How? She didn't know about the brick.
 
Filip Sandor said:
I can confirm your claim that the computer is displaying something on the screen because I can observe it for myself and since I am the one doing the observing, I know my observation is not fabricated. I can scan all the physical activity in your brain, but all I am going to see is what's going on in your brain physically, I have no way of proving there is any mental image.
We can make a computer that records images of cats, and program it to recall them and color them white, without displaying them anywhere. We could examine a memory dump and verify this, because it is technically possible to make a memory dump from a computer and because we know exactly how the image is encoded in it.

We do not, at present, have the ability to make a memory dump of a human brain, and we also do not know the exact coding. However, this in no way implies that it would not be theoretically possible to make that operation.

...Unless you want to make the "argument from ignorance" fallacy.

Hans
 
CFLarsen said:
You're wrong, then: There is a valid, physical theory that describes that: Your brain creates the image.

Fair enough, you say the brain creates it... but can you give a physical description of it?

How? She didn't know about the brick.

Apparently Shirley believes she creates everything in existence and that inevitably includes the brick I would say...
 
MRC_Hans said:
We can make a computer that records images of cats, and program it to recall them and color them white, without displaying them anywhere. We could examine a memory dump and verify this, because it is technically possible to make a memory dump from a computer and because we know exactly how the image is encoded in it.


I believe the real 'code' exists in our minds and we assign it mentally, in our minds, to certain mechanical processes in the computer so that we can communicate it by practical, physical means. So the 'image' in the computer is actually in our minds, not in the computer. There is simply no real evidence of any code inside a computer, unless you consider the code to be the actual physical processes in the computer.
 
Filip Sandor said:


I believe the real 'code' exists in our minds and we assign it mentally, in our minds, to certain mechanical processes in the computer so that we can communicate it by physical means. [/B]
Note the word "believe".

What is your definiton of "our mind", and do you have any evidence it is something different from "our brain" (and its processes)?

Hans
 
Filip Sandor said:
Fair enough, you say the brain creates it... but can you give a physical description of it?

Of the image that is created in the brain? Yes, by the way the brain works. We don't know everything that happens in the brain, though. So far, we don't need to invoke paranormal explanations.

Filip Sandor said:
Apparently Shirley believes she creates everything in existence and that inevitably includes the brick I would say...

I am asking you what you think: Will Shirley die?
 
My own interpretation of that is that I know what I know from direct experience. I perceive a mental image, therefore I know the mental image exists. Whether it accurately represents (the cat) it's physical counterpart is another question all together....

The difference between those who espouse outlandish theories and those who follow the agnostic/atheistic system can be boiled down to a very simple point. It's not about how well the mental activity represents the cat, but about the understood value of that activity itself.

I was going to explain this to Interesting Ian but as he's remarkably unaware of just how ironically uninteresting and uninterested in anything but his own prejudices he is, I couldn't be bothered. But you seem to be more interested in actual understanding, so here is the explanation.

When an event occurs, the brain and body both react in a certain way towards that event; some of this is biologically determined, some of this is random, some of this builds upon prior reactions and developed tendancies... but for now, let us assume a blank slate reaction. Let us say we are seeing a cat for the first time.

The experience of the cat may come from outside of ourselves, but the reactions to the cat are entirely internal to us. Our eyes see, our brain interprets, our feelings respond.

Now, the mind/body reaction to that cat can be stored in Memory by the brain... It doesn't always store it perfectly, as Memory can be lost, and it also stores it according to what ever value it judges the initial experience to have, so it tends to forget things valued unimportant... But when it's something which is understood as important, it's retained as accurately as possible.

And when also it's judged important, more than just "cat" is remembered... If it's a scratching biting cat, the brain might file it in a very important area of memory, and then connect that up to the areas of memory dealing with commands to feel caution, fear, worry etc... So if "cat" memory is triggered, "feeling of caution" is triggered too. If it's a happy purring suckling cat, important memory because pleasure is important but "cat" gets attached to attraction, interest... etc. And just a cat passing on the street? Just into "cats exist, so what?" memory storage.

The point is that the way we percieve things we are not currently experiencing depends entirely upon the way the brain has laid down it's neuronal pathways... The ability to percieve of a "White Cat" depends entirely upon how important that combination of terms is. For me, it means nothing, because I've never known a White Cat, and I have no strong association with the color White by itself (It doesn't mean purity or goodness or any such thing to me). But if you had said "Tabby Cat", not only could I imagine such a cat, but it would trigger very, very strong memories of a particular cat, doing particular things... things which I could almost feel as if I was with her again. And I DO feel it, because of the way in which my mind has been wired up to trigger memories of the way in which my feelings reacted to that cat; and so I feel those things (or as close as memory and appreciation allows me to get) again.

But there's more... and this is where the difference between believers in the super-natural and the objective, scientific world lies. This process HAS to be considered "real", because otherwise it doesn't work. Take fear for instance... if you are faced with an uncertain threat, and can say "Oh, but the fear I feel for what might be there isn't genuine fear, just the memory of a past event", then your survival chances are much lower than if you trust your fear is genuine and treat it as such (overall this is... mostly the monster under the bed isn't there... mostly).

Now, the scientific amongst us still feel fear, wonder and so forth, but we know that it doesn't necessarily match objective reality; The thought of a particular "cat" exists, and can be powerfully felt, but it exists only inside our heads... because it is a product of and dependent upon the existence of our minds.

The believers however have simply taken that need to trust their mental functions to a higher degree. They not only feel the "Cat", but believe that feeling must be REAL in a sense which goes way beyond pure material determinism, beyond evolutionary utility. It simply HAS to be telling them something TRUE and DIVINE that they can think in such terms...

I've already said I don't imagine "White Cats" that well. The fact that you thought it would be a good example Filip is merely proving my point... Because you imagine such a cat so well, you assume it holds true for more than just your own mind... that we can imagine the same as you, respond as powerfully as you do, and see the lesson that such an imagining teaches as clearly as you. Everyone thinks like this to a certain extent about their own beliefs... "if I can explain why this movie is so good, you'll appreciate it too", and so on... but the truth is, understanding simply doesn't work like that. It's entirely possible to imagine a mind which doesn't imagine much of anything, if given sufficiently dull stimulus... Such as being locked in a room when they are born, with only Interesting Ian's wibble for reading material , for instance. Such a mind wouldn't react to your White Cat example at all.., not unless it was a White Cat complaining about SKeptics, anyway. What seems so evocative to you would completely pass by such a person. So where does this "White Cat" exist in any objective sense? It exists only in how each individual mind chooses to define, or not define it.

Let me put it in mathematical terms; All minds are built from very simple addition... X + Y = Z. In your example, you've asked us to imagine X = "White", Y = "Cat". But whilst our minds may be performing exactly the same formula, our result for Z is going to be different, because X does not = "White" for us, or indeed perhaps "White" for us does not even = "White" for you.

This is what makes me laugh at people like Lifegazer so much; they really think they are looking at Life, the universe and everything... but what they are really doing is staring at nothing more than the insides of their own mind, minds which have extended their own internal understanding out onto the exterior world. "It works like this inside my head, so it works like that outside it too." But it doesn't, and never will unless you find a mind which shares your own personal understanding of the variables.

In a way Filip, you are doing the same. I don't doubt that you have a much more sensible understanding of what the mental image of a "White Cat" means... but you are still making the same mistake as the lunatics. You assume that no physical mechanism can be responsible for the moving, powerful Thought you can experience, because you have a sense of wonder attached to the process of Thought itself; But as others have already mentioned that modern science is starting to close in on the physical mechanisms by which Thought operates within the brain... It may never be able to 100% describe a human mind, because it's the mind's very ability to design and redesign it's own blueprint which allows us to be so intelligent... or in some cases, so horribly insane: You cannot say that "This area of the brain is where so and so individual memory is always stored", because for the individual, it may not be. And there's no guarantee where each memory will be connected too either. Lifegazer's mind probably looks like tangled string, each thread emblazoned with sentances like "why can't people understand me?" and "I could perform miracles if I want, I just don't want", all wrapped around a huge, simple core which merely states "This Proves God".... However, the materialistic mechanism remains the same, even in such a mind, the sums are always totalled up in the same way, it's just some of us think 2 + 2 = 5.
 
MRC_Hans said:
Note the word "believe".


Hans, try to look at it like this.

You can assign any 'code' you want to the physical processes inside a computer. Likewise, many people can assign their own, different 'code' to those same physical processes.

This creates a contradiction because what might be the real code in the computer to you is not the real code to me and vice versa, so which code is the real code? Surely I believe my version of the code is the real one and you believe your version is the real one, but we can't both be right if we define the code as that physical state within the computer because it would have to be two different states.

The only other logical possibilty is to assume that the code is external to those physical processes in the computer.

What is your definiton of "our mind", and do you have any evidence it is something different from "our brain" (and its processes)?

Your Mind is comprised of the mental phenomena you experience. When I say I experience something 'in my mind' I only mean that I experience it in the context of thought as opposed to physically interacting with it. The reason I believe my thoughts are not physical is because I can't infer their existence from the physical processes in my brain or any other physical processes and they are qualitatively dissimilar from any part of the physical processes in my brain.
 
I think we need to ask what property material things have which immaterial things cannot have. Isn't location one of these? If something doesn't occupy a particular location in our Universe, then it must be immaterial, right?

In that case, where are dreams and thoughts located? Not in our brains or our heads, only the physical processes exist there.

What other properties do material things have? Weight, size?

How much do thoughts weigh? How big are they?

Another thing that is common to all material things is the ability to be experienced and interacted with by anyone, at least in theory. However, you can't experience my thoughts, and you can't interact with them either.

When I picture a white cat in my head, only I experience it, no one else can.

Can we say the same about any material things?
 
I should just add, that I don't think we can even argue that thoughts could possibly be thought of as material things by any stretch of the imagination.

I think from the materialist's perspective it's more reasonable to argue that thoughts don't actually exist, but are just illusions, rather than trying to claim they are material.
 
Filip Sandor
Definition of non-physical phenomena: any phenomena that is known to exist for sure, for which no physical evidence has ever been observed and no valid, physical theory has ever been invented or observed.
Examples please.
My mental image of a white cat is one such phenomenon.
No it’s not. Imagining a ‘white cat’ is not a phenomenon for which there is no valid physical theory. Still waiting.

My mental image of a white cat is one such phenomenon. I have no physical evidence of it and I have never invented or observed any valid, physical theory that implies it exists... still I am 100% sure it exists because I am aware of it.
1. Exactly how are you aware of it?
2. Valid theory? - Have you never before seen a cat or a picture of a cat? Have you never before seen the color white? Short test – find someone that has been blind since birth and has never heard of a cat then tell them to imagine a white cat and describe it to you in detail.

Do you have any physical evidence of the mental image you perceived or a valid, physical theory that implies it's existence?
Yes - already been discussed in this thread so I'm not going to repeat it.

Ossai
 
Filip Sandor said:
I can confirm your claim that the computer is displaying something on the screen because I can observe it for myself and since I am the one doing the observing, I know my observation is not fabricated. I can scan all the physical activity in your brain, but all I am going to see is what's going on in your brain physically, I have no way of proving there is any mental image.

Extend the computer and screen analogy a bit further.

Lets say we just have the black box, no screen. How do we know what is going on inside the computer?

Well we don’t but we can measure some of the signals going into the computer and some of the signals coming out and from that we can start to do experiments e.g. apply a voltage here and this signal out always doubles in value. From those results we can start to make some deductions of what is going on inside the computer even though we have no way to view the computer display.

Perhaps (and perhaps not of course) this is somewhat similar to the stage we are at with our understanding of the human mind (“I”), e.g. we can't see the display ("I") however we can start to make deductions from what happens when I put something in one end and measure what comes out the other. And an even more tenuous perhaps is that in the future some genius might be able to work out how to translate the outputs and hey viola "I" is displayed on the screen.
 
P.S.A. said:
The difference between those who espouse outlandish theories and those who follow the agnostic/atheistic system can be boiled down to a very simple point. It's not about how well the mental activity represents the cat, but about the understood value of that activity itself.

I was going to explain this to Interesting Ian but as he's remarkably unaware of just how ironically uninteresting and uninterested in anything but his own prejudices he is, I couldn't be bothered. But you seem to be more interested in actual understanding, so here is the explanation.

When an event occurs, the brain and body both react in a certain way towards that event; some of this is biologically determined, some of this is random, some of this builds upon prior reactions and developed tendancies... but for now, let us assume a blank slate reaction. Let us say we are seeing a cat for the first time.

The experience of the cat may come from outside of ourselves, but the reactions to the cat are entirely internal to us. Our eyes see, our brain interprets, our feelings respond.

Now, the mind/body reaction to that cat can be stored in Memory by the brain... It doesn't always store it perfectly, as Memory can be lost, and it also stores it according to what ever value it judges the initial experience to have, so it tends to forget things valued unimportant... But when it's something which is understood as important, it's retained as accurately as possible.

And when also it's judged important, more than just "cat" is remembered... If it's a scratching biting cat, the brain might file it in a very important area of memory, and then connect that up to the areas of memory dealing with commands to feel caution, fear, worry etc... So if "cat" memory is triggered, "feeling of caution" is triggered too. If it's a happy purring suckling cat, important memory because pleasure is important but "cat" gets attached to attraction, interest... etc. And just a cat passing on the street? Just into "cats exist, so what?" memory storage.

The point is that the way we percieve things we are not currently experiencing depends entirely upon the way the brain has laid down it's neuronal pathways... The ability to percieve of a "White Cat" depends entirely upon how important that combination of terms is. For me, it means nothing, because I've never known a White Cat, and I have no strong association with the color White by itself (It doesn't mean purity or goodness or any such thing to me). But if you had said "Tabby Cat", not only could I imagine such a cat, but it would trigger very, very strong memories of a particular cat, doing particular things... things which I could almost feel as if I was with her again. And I DO feel it, because of the way in which my mind has been wired up to trigger memories of the way in which my feelings reacted to that cat; and so I feel those things (or as close as memory and appreciation allows me to get) again.

But there's more... and this is where the difference between believers in the super-natural and the objective, scientific world lies. This process HAS to be considered "real", because otherwise it doesn't work. Take fear for instance... if you are faced with an uncertain threat, and can say "Oh, but the fear I feel for what might be there isn't genuine fear, just the memory of a past event", then your survival chances are much lower than if you trust your fear is genuine and treat it as such (overall this is... mostly the monster under the bed isn't there... mostly).

Now, the scientific amongst us still feel fear, wonder and so forth, but we know that it doesn't necessarily match objective reality; The thought of a particular "cat" exists, and can be powerfully felt, but it exists only inside our heads... because it is a product of and dependent upon the existence of our minds.

The believers however have simply taken that need to trust their mental functions to a higher degree. They not only feel the "Cat", but believe that feeling must be REAL in a sense which goes way beyond pure material determinism, beyond evolutionary utility. It simply HAS to be telling them something TRUE and DIVINE that they can think in such terms...

I've already said I don't imagine "White Cats" that well. The fact that you thought it would be a good example Filip is merely proving my point... Because you imagine such a cat so well, you assume it holds true for more than just your own mind... that we can imagine the same as you, respond as powerfully as you do, and see the lesson that such an imagining teaches as clearly as you. Everyone thinks like this to a certain extent about their own beliefs... "if I can explain why this movie is so good, you'll appreciate it too", and so on... but the truth is, understanding simply doesn't work like that. It's entirely possible to imagine a mind which doesn't imagine much of anything, if given sufficiently dull stimulus... Such as being locked in a room when they are born, with only Interesting Ian's wibble for reading material , for instance. Such a mind wouldn't react to your White Cat example at all.., not unless it was a White Cat complaining about SKeptics, anyway. What seems so evocative to you would completely pass by such a person. So where does this "White Cat" exist in any objective sense? It exists only in how each individual mind chooses to define, or not define it.

Let me put it in mathematical terms; All minds are built from very simple addition... X + Y = Z. In your example, you've asked us to imagine X = "White", Y = "Cat". But whilst our minds may be performing exactly the same formula, our result for Z is going to be different, because X does not = "White" for us, or indeed perhaps "White" for us does not even = "White" for you.

This is what makes me laugh at people like Lifegazer so much; they really think they are looking at Life, the universe and everything... but what they are really doing is staring at nothing more than the insides of their own mind, minds which have extended their own internal understanding out onto the exterior world. "It works like this inside my head, so it works like that outside it too." But it doesn't, and never will unless you find a mind which shares your own personal understanding of the variables.

In a way Filip, you are doing the same. I don't doubt that you have a much more sensible understanding of what the mental image of a "White Cat" means... but you are still making the same mistake as the lunatics. You assume that no physical mechanism can be responsible for the moving, powerful Thought you can experience, because you have a sense of wonder attached to the process of Thought itself; But as others have already mentioned that modern science is starting to close in on the physical mechanisms by which Thought operates within the brain... It may never be able to 100% describe a human mind, because it's the mind's very ability to design and redesign it's own blueprint which allows us to be so intelligent... or in some cases, so horribly insane: You cannot say that "This area of the brain is where so and so individual memory is always stored", because for the individual, it may not be. And there's no guarantee where each memory will be connected too either. Lifegazer's mind probably looks like tangled string, each thread emblazoned with sentances like "why can't people understand me?" and "I could perform miracles if I want, I just don't want", all wrapped around a huge, simple core which merely states "This Proves God".... However, the materialistic mechanism remains the same, even in such a mind, the sums are always totalled up in the same way, it's just some of us think 2 + 2 = 5.

P.S.A., I really do appreciate your open mindedness and that you don't think I'm crazy, but maybe you're right and maybe I'm making too much of a fuss over my white cat. Although in my first post, I did say that you can imagine any color and breed of cat you want so your Tabby is very welcome to step up ahead of my white cat. Most people know what a cat is and the color white, so most people can imagine a white cat.

The point here is not to imagine a white cat or a pink elephant, but to imagine something that can be perceived with relative clarity by most people. Getting right down to it, I want everyone to be able to experience a well recognizable mental image, so that they are sure the mental image is real (where the memory comes form doesn't matter so much as whether it is clearly acknowledgable).

If you sense that I am over-dramatizing anything it is probably because I am trying to prove something pretty dramatic - the existence of non-physical phenomena. If you prefer you can think of an oranga instead of a cat, it works with anything really.

The most interesting thing about this whole thought experiment is that it demonstrates that we can only truly confirm the existence of the mental phenomena we experience individually. As soon as we take it beyond us and say someone else experiences mental phenomena then we need to be able to prove it somehow and as far as I can tell no materialist I've thrown this out to has been able to give a real comprehensible physical theory that proves mental phenomena to exist.

The computer analogy that Hans presented is compelling, but if you read my response to him you'll see why it doesn't work. On the other hand, I need no evidence of the 'code' that is my thoughts because I perceive them directly... the fact that I can be 100% sure my thoughts exist without the need for any physical theory or physical measurements is the only thing that lets me conclude that my thoughts must be non-physical (since no physical theory or measurements are necessary to imply their existence).
 
Filip Sandor said:
Hans, try to look at it like this.

You can assign any 'code' you want to the physical processes inside a computer. Likewise, many people can assign their own, different 'code' to those same physical processes.

This creates a contradiction because what might be the real code in the computer to you is not the real code to me and vice versa, so which code is the real code?

No contradiction at all. It is like running Excel on a PC and a MAC. The codes are different because the CPUs are different. Both codes are right. The PC code is right for a PC and the MAC code is right for a MAC.

Surely I believe my version of the code is the real one and you believe your version is the real one, but we can't both be right if we define the code as that physical state within the computer because it would have to be two different states.

Nonsense. Since our brains are not quite identical, our codes are likely to be different. Both versions are right.

The only other logical possibilty is to assume that the code is external to those physical processes in the computer.

So Excel is external to computers because the code for a Mac and for a PC are different. Excuse me, but this is ridiculous.

Your Mind is comprised of the mental phenomena you experience. When I say I experience something 'in my mind' I only mean that I experience it in the context of thought as opposed to physically interacting with it.

The thought processes can still be physical.

The reason I believe my thoughts are not physical is because I can't infer their existence from the physical processes in my brain or any other physical processes and they are qualitatively dissimilar from any part of the physical processes in my brain.

That is demonstratably wrong. You can make a scan of the brain and you can see that certain thoughts produce certain patterns. True, we cannot at present decode them in any detail (and we don't know if we'll ever be able to), but so what?

Hans
 
I want to continue this discussion, but I have to go get some sleep so I can tackle my day.

Be back later... Darat I look forward to answering yoru last post.. :)
 

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