When to homeschool?

[maddog]

And herein lies the problem.

Parental involvement is arguably the single most important factor in educational performance among children. If you think about it, the teacher has the kids (in a group of thirty) for about thirty hours a week; the parents have them for well over a hundred. Helping your children with their homework and reading them bedtime stories are among the best things that you can do to help your children in school.

Parents who homeschool are almost by definition involved in their children's education, which is of course good. But that means that simply performing "better than average" is hardly an impressive achievement. A home-schooled child who is reading at grade level is underperforming; in a typical public school setting, a child with a high degree of parental involvement plus "normal" teaching would be expected to read above -- substantially above -- grade level. (This paper, which may unfortunately require a subscription, talks about the issue in some depth and provides some numbers.)

It also helps, demographically, that parents who homeschool tend to be those who can afford to homeschool (i.e. the low-performing low socioeconomic status families can't) and tend to be two-parent families (again, single working mothers typically can't afford the time.)

So any child who is in a position to be homeschooled should be doing substantially better than average even in an appallingly bad school district. Beth suggests that "homeschooled children average around the 80th percentile on standarized tests."

If their expected performance given all the other advantages that they have would put them at the 90th percentile, and instead they average at the 80th,.... I find it hard to see that as an accomplishment. And a parent who's child is "only" performing at the 60th percentile will probably not even realize the disservice they are doing to their kids.....

I can't respond properly at the moment (MadPuppy asleep on lap!), but CRITICALLY re-read your own post -- I find your post riddled with problems, both theoretical and practical.

 

[Wavicle]

Close but not bang on. Negative experiences are very much part of life even if you never learn to learn from them.

I guess I'm not arguing this point very well. What I'm trying to say is, if a negative experience leads to a lifelong-lesson that is also negative (i.e. if a victim of bullying learns to enjoy life marginalized in a fringe group) then that lesson has no value or negative value, hence the child would be better off not learning it.

What kicked this all off was the statement "There are just some things I cannot teach them and some of these things can only be taught to them by a bully [..snip...]" My argument is that what the bully has to teach them will most likely have either no value, or negative value. I don't think I have, indeed I hope I haven't, argued that any experience with a bully is 'positive.' There are plenty of negative experiences to have in life that carry lower risk than subjecting your child to bullying.

 

[Wavicle]

I did find that some research shows that up until grade 8 the social development of home schooled children is the same as others. Once puberty hits the the home schooled children start to lose out. I will admit to having done little research myself and going on my gut feeling. I do realise that I may be wrong.

If you find this research again, I would very much like to read it. Thanks!

 

[rachaella]

I think that "pulling out of society" is certainly a motivation for some homeschoolers. When I was part of a homeschooling group tight control of much that the child was exposed to seemed to be a large motivation for some parents. Some weren't allowed to watch any TV, or use the internet, read newspapers (even in their teen years). When we had teens over, we had to be very careful what movies we watched - some weren't allowed to watch anything beyond G or PG. "Preserving innocence" were words used quite often. It is of course reasonable to limit what your children are exposed to, to a certain extent, but in my experience with homschoolers, for at least some of them - sheltering is very much a part of the reasoning behind it. And this wasn't even the more rigid religious group in my area, these were the "open-minded" homeschoolers! I'm sure there are many homeschoolers that this does definitely not apply to, and I may even consider homeschooling my children when I have them (far in the future, I'm only 22), depending on the quality of the local schools and whether there are non-religious private options.

 

[scarlet_35]

I skimmed through most of this but my first thought was how is she going to be when she becomes a teen, if all the other students are a year older than her? A year can make a difference. for example: all the physical changes girls go through. I have a daughter and I have no doubt it gave her some comfort knowing that several of her friends started their monthly at the same time, in fact 2 of them started with her, on her birthday at my house yes it was VERY weird, but nice that they were just laying around instead of being crazy and loud She might feel out of place hearing how all the other girls are doing this or that and she's not because she's not physically ready.

same with dating. My daughter has a gf who is younger then the rest, her friends date, she wants to, does and its sooo obvious she's not ready but peer pressure causes her to do it anyway

not saying your daughter would fall to peer pressure, or even that she'd be affected by others going through puberty before her but its just something to think about.

I don't think it makes that much of a difference if you repeat K, not as much as it would to repeat another grade, like 2nd or 3rd. If you're going to do something, you need to do it while she's still young.

just my 2 cents, good luck with whatever you decide, I'm sure you'll make the right choice for your daughter

 

[hadalittlelamb]

i've really tried to stay out of this thread, being new to all this, but here goes---i homeschool my 6 year old son. i have experience primarily as a high school math teacher but i've also taught K,1, 6-8 and adults. i am not an expert but here are my thoughts:
the cutoff date for your daughter's birthday is the problem---i have a major problem mixing 5 year olds with 6 year olds in k. Much depends on the kids but when you mix a really smart 5 year old who has the motor skills, physical ability and other-awareness of a 5 year old with seasoned 6 year olds the 5 year old will suffer. You will be surprised at the jump that takes place at 5 1/2 in your child.
Have you thought of giving homeschooling a try for a year? if you don't think it is working put her back in school. Homeschooling gets so much negativity because of the xan factor. Secular groups do give you much of the mix like any school, we do let the kids just run around at the playground like recess. Sometimes groups form to teach a subject that one parent is an expert in. Socialization is not a problem in this day and age.
So much of the love of learning/natural curiosity of a child can get destroyed by formal schooling. They get regimented into what has to be done to please the teacher or some other cool kid. Yes, that starts in k, believe me. Also, would you ask your daughter's teacher who she plays with at recess?
I know i will probably offend someone with this statement but sorry in advance: some teachers really could care less about your child, teaching is their job and they get piles of other "duties" that generally sap any love for the profession out of them. They want an "easy" class. Other observations have been that the turn-over rate for elementary teachers can be high. They tend to be very young and inexperienced. At my private school, they were usually ed majors whose boyfriend was in med school and 'she' was teaching until they got married and 'she' would quit--this would happen over and over. Also, when i was trying to develop the math curriculum most would admit they hated math, could barely get out of remedial college algebra, etc. This would drive me insane bc so much of early learning in my eyes is play/enticement and the kids would lose out on math play bc the teachers didn't like math! On the other hand, i've had teachers that have been teaching for 10 years and they don't want to change their methods, worksheets, lesson plans. Trying to get them to change to a more modern book or project and they get darn right ugly.
also as for homeschooling to preserve innocence--why, not preserve innocence? some of the 6th graders i've taught were so seasoned it was disgusting--it actually was starting in the 5th grade. AND it wasn't just the boys, more often it was the girls...and i add this bc your daughter will be 10 when those other kids are 11 and if held back 12 years old.
i know this post is all over the place but unless you've been in a faculty lounge and experienced/heard some of the unprofessionalism that i have you cannot tell me that a degree in education makes one a teacher in the sense that they possess some superior ability as opposed to a parent who is willing to read, reseach and learn right along with their kid. As you get older, even if you weren't the best student, your level of interest and need for success is greater bc it involves your child.
again, i apologize if i offend but i couldn't keep my big mouth shut any longer.....baa...baa

 

[rachaella]

the cutoff date for your daughter's birthday is the problem---i have a major problem mixing 5 year olds with 6 year olds in k. Much depends on the kids but when you mix a really smart 5 year old who has the motor skills, physical ability and other-awareness of a 5 year old with seasoned 6 year olds the 5 year old will suffer.

It DOES depend on the child. I was that really smart 5 year old - I started Kindergarten when I was 4 technially and turned 5 about 2 weeks later and did very well. I did very well throughout the rest of my school experience, socially and academically, and only health problems lead me to leave school. I had really wonderful, fantastic teachers and would not have traded that experience at all! Maybe I'm not the norm, but that was my experience.

 

[Wavicle]

i am not an expert but here are my thoughts:

Having been a teacher and homeschooling your own probably puts you much closer to expert than me at least.

Have you thought of giving homeschooling a try for a year?

Yes, and we're still thinking about it. I'm actively researching the subject and clearly it is a big commitment. I'm acting on some of the reccomendations made in this thread. I checked out several books from the library and I'm currently reading "How Children Fail" by John Holt (an interesting book, but it seems it is really aimed at teachers).

Right now my inclination is to wait and see how things go and continue working with her academics in the evenings. There's a store in town that caters to homeschoolers. I bought a couple 10 sided dice and we play "add and take away" during dinner. Before dessert I require 20 minutes of reading (more like request 20 mins, I'm a pushover).

Also, would you ask your daughter's teacher who she plays with at recess?

We've done that. She has a couple friends who she will play with very happily at their house or ours, but at recess, she's mostly a loner. I volunteer with her class running the computer lab once a week, after lab it's recess. I've had a chance to watch for myself. The teacher has it pretty much right. My daughter doesn't look sad (although I project that she *must* be sad) she just likes to look at things the other kids don't. One recess she spent most of the time picking the dandelion flowers from the grass and inspecting them closely. She didn't ask me any questions about them later that day so I'm not sure what was going on in her head.

At my private school, they were usually ed majors whose boyfriend was in med school and 'she' was teaching until they got married and 'she' would quit--this would happen over and over.

Wow, slightly off-topic but that hits close. One of my female friends from college had pretty much that exact same attitude, private school and everything, only she intended to teach until she got pregnant.

Also, when i was trying to develop the math curriculum most would admit they hated math, could barely get out of remedial college algebra, etc. This would drive me insane bc so much of early learning in my eyes is play/enticement and the kids would lose out on math play bc the teachers didn't like math!

Interesting. In my bachelors math program, you could pretty much draw a line separating the top 25% and bottom 75% of passing students (I'll ignore those who were drinking/partying their degree away). Nearly all the bottom 75% were going into teaching. About half the top 25% were, with the rest going on to grad school or (like me) working an industry job. This is the source of most of my discontent with formal teaching - I feel like 6 out of 7 teachers didn't make a particularly honest effort during college themselves.

 

[hadalittlelamb]

I think your daughter is being mislabeled as immature--that's why i asked about her behavior at recess---please check out the linked article. Your daughter's teacher needs to review her ed material on gifted behavior that can be incorrectly misidentified as immature.
If you homeschool your daughter she will meet older children of similar intellectual maturity yet be able to retain those same-age friends.
Homeschooling is not easy. But, given the reasoning games you've already been doing--you are way ahead of most. Sorry to say this, but you are ahead of your child's teacher as well. Also, I bet your child is ok with just coloring but slightly bored with it. So many K activities are centered around coloring and yours is focusing on completion because to her that's the only challenge.
I do recommend you check out E.D. Hirsch, Jr.'s Core Knowledge series at a library. It is not a homeschool book but a lot of us use it as a reference. On the other hand, if she stays in school, do not repeat K, she will be soooo bored you are going to have behavior problems.
Let me know what you think of the article.

opps, i can't post the link bc of the 15 post thingy rule but let's see if i get thrown off for trying---go to
geniusdenied.com
/articles/
Record.aspx?NavID=13_0&rid=12374
you're a computer guy put it all together or doctor up the "unlink" below

geniusdenied.com/articles/Record.aspx?NavID=13_0&rid=12374

 

[Mrs L]

I say throw her to the wolves. I know that sounds callous but social skills are learned through experience if you remove her from the experience then how is she to learn? If she is bright and wants to learn academically how will she take to failing kindergarden? That might be worse than having a few fits. If she repeats kindergarden there will be some kid who will point out that she failed kindergarden.

If she is bright she'll figure it out.

As someone who was thrown to the wolves I'd have to say that this is a bad idea. A REALLY bad idea. For the following: she's bright. She'll learn that she can skip school and as long as they send the work home she can still pass the classes (unless she gets tripped up on truancy charges). There were several times throughout my schooling that I simply refused to go back- the kids didn't like me, they weren't like me either, I didn't fit and was too bright... I "fit in" with the kids three grades above me. And adults. Them, I could talk to on my own level. The kids my age- nothing. I didn't start to make any friends at all until sometime in high school, and that was one person from self-defense and I inherited all of her friends. I didn't have any friends all on my own without benefit of school work or inheritance principles until I was 23. And that was right before I kicked myself out of my mom's house.

Marc and I have discussed homeschooling in the past. We see both sides of the arguments and pretty much have agreed to wait and see what will be best for the Borgmonkey when she gets old enough for such things. Depending on where we're living, what's available, what her intelligence tends towards (not gifted/ungifted-wise, more of how she learns and personality traits)... It's a hard call. What's best for her may not work for any other children we may or may not have.

 

[bluess]

I think that's the best way to go, Mrs. L. We had originally thought to homeschool Blue2. However, she is a very social child, and also needs the stimulation of other people doing better than her at this and that to excel. We are also lucjy in that the elementary school is a great school. So, off to school, but with lots of Mom & Dad time.

 

[Chris Haynes]

...Our public school districts even have services for homeschoolers (including online classes, and opportunities for homeschoolers to participate in school bands)....!

There is an article in today's newspaper about this program. Some homeschoolers are actually not too thrilled about it. Here goes:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/296689_homeschool21.html

It has some good comments from homeschoolers about the process. Ending with

Hedin, who homeschooled her two children entirely on her own, said she's developed a presentation titled "14 Things I'd Do Differently." Tops on her list: "I would not worry so much about the end result," she said. "I'd enjoy the process more."

(please note: I am one of those who is not going tell someone they should or not do something. I do not homeschool, but I am not about to tell someone they shouldn't. I also expect that my choices be respected and that I not be told that "all x-type schools are bad/evil/low/etc". Because generalizations fall apart with anything that is populated by human beings. Just ignore the sign in front of the door, and see how good the people are inside the building!).