When morons breed...

[volatile]

How in the HELL does that work?

I'd always been a very sceptical and questioning individual, but until 2 years ago, what I ate was completely beyond my thought process. Quite simply, I was always going around asking people why they were vegetarian or vegan. I never once thought to ask the same question of my own omnivorous diet - it was just something I'd always done, something I'd done since childhood, unquestioningly. My diet was completely irrational, as I'd never even thought about *why* I ate meat.

This isn't a metaphysical stance for me. I don't believe it's fundamentally immoral to eat animals, as some religions teach, for example. But given that it is perfectly possible to eat a balanced and healthy plant-based diet and that in a developed Western country eating vegan is as easy as the alternative, and given that there seem to be at least some quantifiable negatives to eating meat and dairy whichever way you slice it (health, environment, ethics), I haven't been given a reason to eat meat that survives a rational response.

"It tastes good", and yes indeed it does, is not good enough for me. It's far too selfish, far too like the response many of us mock when questioning theists - "it feels good". If it's good enough for someone else, that's fantastic. As long as you've thought about it, read about the various impacts on health and the environment of the alternatives, educated yourself about the processes that go into producing what ends up on the plate and come down on the side of meat eating, that's OK. As long as you've thought about it. As I said, I really hadn't, and when I did, it became untenable.


I don't know if I want to start a thread on this, as I hate preaching on this issue... I'm not hardcore about my veganism, I don't preach to convert people, I don't make a fuss or grandstand it. It's very personal. And it's the result of one question. "Why do you eat animal products?".

 

[timhau]

60 cups vegetarian beans

Vegetarian beans, as opposed to some other kind of beans?

 

[volatile]

Vegetarian beans, as opposed to some other kind of beans?

You'd be surprised what whey powder, lactose and other bizarrely random animal products find their way into all kinds of things, once you start looking!

 

[skeptifem]

Does vegans reject breastfeeding? Obviously these two did, but i cant imagine that is the rule...

this had little to do with being vegan. an expert said that they simply didnt feed their baby enough.

and also, vegans still condone taking your kid to the doctor, especially when they weigh 3.5 lbs and arent gaining weight

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I agree that this case has nothing to do with veganism and more to do with the incompetence of these specific individuals vegans or not. The baby didn't die because they were vegans but because they were incompetent. Millions of vegans raise happy and healthy babies.

I am however perplexed by the verdict. Apparently they were found guilty of malice murder, felony murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty to children. Firstly, How could they be guilty of murder if they never intended their baby to actually die? What does "malice murder" even mean? I've never heard that term used in U.S. courts before. Secondly, How could they be charged with all of these separate things on one single crime?

 

[Mid]

...snip...
I don't know if I want to start a thread on this, as I hate preaching on this issue... I'm not hardcore about my veganism, I don't preach to convert people, I don't make a fuss or grandstand it. It's very personal. And it's the result of one question. "Why do you eat animal products?".

Just to put my tupence worth in I'd be interested in reading that thread, although I do fear that it could quickly be derailed into petty bickering like has happened on a number of recent vegan/vegeterian threads. Can't really gurantee I'd add much to the thread as I'm a bit of a fencer sitter on this topic, and I'm for a week tomorrow, but I do think it could be interesting (at least to me ).

 

[Michael Redman]

The way this case has been reported seems to imply that they didn't breastfeed because they were vegans, although I don't see any evidence of that (admittedly, I have only read one article).

However, many people in this thread are stating quite strongly that they did not refrain from breastfeeding because they are vegans. I don't see any evidence to support this claim, either.

While most vegans may very well approve of breastfeeding, it is quite conceivable that some would equate it with the consumption of any other animal product, and shun it.

 

[Z]

Vegetarian beans refers, specifically, to that product sold alongside baked beans (Bush's, Van de Kampf's, etc.). Baked beans commonly include beef stock, beef bone extract, lard, fatback, etc; vegetarian beans are made without this. Even some barbecue sauces include beef stock or similar in their recipes. Vegetarian beans are commony used as a protein supplement in institutional diets (in places such as schools, the military, prisons) for vegan and vegetarian clients.

Just FYI.

~Z, vegetarian under duress.

 

[volatile]

The way this case has been reported seems to imply that they didn't breastfeed because they were vegans, although I don't see any evidence of that (admittedly, I have only read one article).

However, many people in this thread are stating quite strongly that they did not refrain from breastfeeding because they are vegans. I don't see any evidence to support this claim, either.

While most vegans may very well approve of breastfeeding, it is quite conceivable that some would equate it with the consumption of any other animal product, and shun it.

Nonsense. I challenge you to find just one vegan who opposes breastfeeding because they are vegan.

Vegans don't just blindly shun animal products for no coherent reason - some eschew them because they oppose using animals as commodities, some because they are percieved as less healthy or more damaging to the environment, some because they oppose the cruelty they see in farming, some for religious or metaphysical reasons... there is not one strand of veganism which would be opposed to a human mother willingly giving up her own breast milk for her own child, and it's absurd to suggst otherwise.

In fact, the second link posted above, which gives more details, says that they *did* breastfeed to a small degree. These parets were dumb, ignorant and foolhardy, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with their veganism.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Being a vegan is fine - these two, though, should be facing the death penalty for willful ignorance.

I disagree. They lost their child. Don't you think that is punishment enough?

DR

 

[Rolfe]

Nonsense. I challenge you to find just one vegan who opposes breastfeeding because they are vegan.

I don't suppose I could find the article, but quite a long time ago I did read a similar report which specifically stated that the mother would not breastfeed because she was a vegan and didn't want her baby ever to ingest any sort of animal product.

One report. One woman. Who was obviously out of her cotton-picking mind, and had no idea of the rationale of veganism. But I did read that report.

Rolfe.

 

[volatile]

I don't suppose I could find the article, but quite a long time ago I did read a similar report which specifically stated that the mother would not breastfeed because she was a vegan and didn't want her baby ever to ingest any sort of animal product.

One report. One woman. Who was obviously out of her cotton-picking mind, and had no idea of the rationale of veganism. But I did read that report.

Rolfe.

Wow. Really? That's ridiculous.

I shall humbly eat my (non-animal) hat.

 

[Francesca R]

While most vegans may very well approve of breastfeeding, it is quite conceivable that some would equate it with the consumption of any other animal product, and shun it.

Are you serious? Only someone who had decided to be "vegan" without understanding what vegan means. There are approximately 40 weeks of gestation during which foetuses are consuming "animal product" too on that definition. That kind of "vegan" should probably forswear conceiving.

 

[Francesca R]

I don't suppose I could find the article, but quite a long time ago I did read a similar report which specifically stated that the mother would not breastfeed because she was a vegan and didn't want her baby ever to ingest any sort of animal product.

One report. One woman. Who was obviously out of her cotton-picking mind, and had no idea of the rationale of veganism. But I did read that report.

Wow. Well, I'd ask her what in the devil's name she thought she was pumping that baby full of in utero, if not animal product.

 

[Rolfe]

Are you serious? Only someone who had decided to be "vegan" without understanding what vegan means. There are approximately 40 weeks of gestation during which foetuses are consuming "animal product" too on that definition. That kind of "vegan" should probably forswear conceiving.

Well, as I said, I once read a report of a case where the woman concerned gave exactly that reason for refusing to breast-feed. I entirely agree with your view of the matter, though.

Rolfe.

 

[Francesca R]

Right—see my response . . .

 

[Michael Redman]

Nonsense. I challenge you to find just one vegan who opposes breastfeeding because they are vegan.

Vegans don't just blindly shun animal products for no coherent reason - some eschew them because they oppose using animals as commodities, some because they are percieved as less healthy or more damaging to the environment, some because they oppose the cruelty they see in farming, some for religious or metaphysical reasons... there is not one strand of veganism which would be opposed to a human mother willingly giving up her own breast milk for her own child, and it's absurd to suggst otherwise.

In fact, the second link posted above, which gives more details, says that they *did* breastfeed to a small degree. These parets were dumb, ignorant and foolhardy, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with their veganism.

Wow, defensive much?

Contrary to your assertion, I don't need to go out and poll every vegan on the planet to know that the assertions that all vegans have rational basis for their practices is beyond ludicrous.

I didn't say this couple didn't breastfeed because of their vegan beliefs, I only said it was conceivable that some vegans might equate breast milk with other animal products and shun it.

And that is true.

 

[andyandy]

Wow, defensive much?

Contrary to your assertion, I don't need to go out and poll every vegan on the planet to know that the assertions that all vegans have rational basis for their practices is beyond ludicrous.

.

This is somewhat disingenous - the comment

"Vegans don't just blindly shun animal products for no coherent reason"

is a general one - and i doubt many people would have objection to it. If one accepts certain premises, then it is indeed rational and coherent to shun animal products. Based on the context, to change this into a rather aggressive 100% of vegans strawman is unnecessary. If you wish to start a thread on the subject, i'd be happy to participate - you obviously have a lot of anger to vent

 

[Michael Redman]

Why don't you start a new thread?

Because the question of whether these people didn't breastfeed due to vegan practices is directly relevant to this one.

 

[casebro]

I consider vegetarianism to be a religion. After all, it's a decision based on faith, not science. So, like all religions, life style is open to personal interpretations. And like all religions, there are fanatics.

Hmmm, I do wonder if in this case, the mother was 'dry' due to poor nutrition of her own? I guess it would depend on which 'sect' of vegan she is. I guess some claim to eat only low yield vegetables, no starchs,grains, minimal fruit- it could take 20 pounds of broccoli per day just to get a day's calories. Didn't Randi look at this?