When is Lying Justified?

[Tricky]

When all probable outcomes of telling the truth are worse than the outcomes of lying?

That's my feeling too. The problem is, analyzing all the possible outcomes and assigning relative values for "good" and "bad" is a somewhat imprecise science.

 

[Kaylee]

How's this?

I think it is usually unjustified to lie to someone who has a stake in the information.
This would allow for the "polite" lies that we all tell each other to avoid embarrassment or maintain privacy, especially of others.

If someone needs to make decisions based on what you tell them, it is usually wrong to lie to them. In extreme cases, if you know that telling them the truth will enable them to do something so wrong that you feel morally compelled to interfere, something other than the truth may be justified.

And who isn't your acknowledged enemy. I agree that would work and cover many if not most of life's situations.

One of the things Bok's brings up is that for a society to work, most of its members must be truthful most of the time. Otherwise people constantly doubt each other and that doubt becomes a real problem, even with the trivial things of day to day living.

Bok points out that even frequent liars rely on others to be truthful, which is ironic.

 

[Kaylee]

When all probable outcomes of telling the truth are worse than the outcomes of lying?

When telling the truth would cause unnecessary harm to others.

Sometimes, when to tell the truth would cause harm to yourself. Then again, sometimes we deserve that harm, so lying to get out of it probably isn't the best thing, and yet most of us do it anyway.

That's my feeling too. The problem is, analyzing all the possible outcomes and assigning relative values for "good" and "bad" is a somewhat imprecise science.

So ehchks and Tricky are going for the Utilitarian Philosophy about Truth and Lying. Slingblade, I'm including you also under this blanket philosophy because, assuming there are no other factors to consider, if lying would prevent unnecc. harm -- than on can argue that the greater good is served by lying.

However, one of the reasons why it was interesting to read Bok's book was because after she got done introducing and explaining a justification for lying -- she would then proceed to tear it apart and show all of its shortcomings.

Tricky mentions that its an imprecise science figuring out the relative values for "good" and "bad". That is one of the things Bok mentions also. She also mentions that it can be very difficult to bo objective when one has a personal stake in a given situation. Also, the person deceived would probably not agree with the deceiver's assessment. And once the deception is known, trust is lost and its very difficult if not impossible to regain it.

 

[The Man]

That's my feeling too. The problem is, analyzing all the possible outcomes and assigning relative values for "good" and "bad" is a somewhat imprecise science.

Well that's the rub of it Tricky, justification in lying or telling the truth, seems to me, to seek some kind of objective validation for ones actions in that regard. Being able to analyze all the possible outcomes (regardless of what "good" or "bad" values one might choose to ascribe to any) is simply not a, well, possible outcome (barring omnipotence that is) in either case. Though analyzing some probable outcome (and ascribing it a "good" or "bad" value) often is. As objective validation does not seem to be an option, both subjective internal and external validation or at least acceptance (with the acceptance of some personal responsibility as a caveat) would seem to be the only target one could hit.

A man's got to know his limitations.



Clint Eastwood as "Dirty Harry Callahan" in the 1973 movie "Magnum Force"

Knowing our limitations is what admonishes us to the potential unforeseen consequences of exceeding them. Unfortunately, we may not know such limitations until we do in fact exceed them.

 

[Brian-M]

Lying does not need to be justified, it's pretty harmless by itself. If I lied and said I was the Supreme High Chancellor of Mars, who would care?

It's only when lying is used for deception that trouble begins.

Deception and lying are two very different things. Sure, you can deceive people with lies, but you can also deceive without lying and lie without decieving.

 

[tsig]

Lying does not need to be justified, it's pretty harmless by itself. If I lied and said I was the Supreme High Chancellor of Mars, who would care?

It's only when lying is used for deception that trouble begins.

Deception and lying are two very different things. Sure, you can deceive people with lies, but you can also deceive without lying and lie without decieving.

Lying isn't wrong, it's stupid.

 

[Kaylee]

"Does this make me look fat?"

I can think of three cases where I always find lying justified.

If a woman asks me how old she looks, then I always say "You look 22.".

If a woman asks me if this dress/these pants/this outfit/etc. make me look fat, then I always say "No. Of course not.".

If a woman asks me how I like her new hair style, then I always say "It looks great!".

Sorry, but I have found the hard way that when it comes to questions of age, weight, and hair, then a lie is almost always better than the truth.

When it gets my mom off my back. Yes, Mom, my cholesterol is fine.

When I last saw my father-in-law I said he looked great and I was glad to see him. Neither thing was true. He looked like 10 miles of bad road and I am never glad to see him. Telling that lie is easier and less painful for all concerned than telling the truth. I don't care about deeper issues, I don't care about right and wrong, I care about easier. Any deeper meaning to that lie means nothing to me.

Heh.

Bok mentioned another justification for lying that comes from the Talmud. It's considered OK to lie if there will be no harm resulting from the lie and it will help make "family peace", or "shalom byet." "Shalom byet" literally translate to "house peace", but the connotative meaning is "family peace."

It's very similar to the concept of telling white lies. Lies that are thought to hurt no one but end up helping to maintain harmony between people.

Well, I don't recall exactlly how Bok tore down those two particular justifications -- but I think we can all take a crack at it.

I'll go first.

* We are mistaken about a situation and the lie ends up not being harmless.

* Even if its an open secret that its family tradition to tell each other white lies, it helps create an atmosphere of distrust. What if the wife decides one day that she really wants to know her husbands opinion -- but the habit of engaging in white lies is so strong she can't be sure she will get the truth when she wants it or her husband still continues to misunderstand?

* I heard this story recently. A father and mother were lying to their grown children (who had families of their own) and saying everything was fine with them. In actuality, the father had cancer but they "didn't want to worry the children."

Well, one of the daughers found out from a 3rd source that her father was sick. She confronted him and he confessed. It turned out that she knew a lot of people who knew about cancer treatments, they made suggestions, the father ended up following them and the cancer went into remission.

So this is a scenario where a white lie could have caused a needless early death. But it was found out in time, and aside from trust issues that had to be worked on within the family, all ended up well. The father ended up living longer because his white lie didn't hold up.

* For the sake of a very shallow harmony, real growth or mutual understanding is compromised. A shallow relationship never gets a chance to become a real and meaningful one.

I'm sure we could all come up with other ways to show that white lies can actually be harmful.

Answering "No" to this question may be the absolute Truth. If it is the cellulite that is making them look fat.

And then there is Douglas's take on it.

Seriously, I think we all know that sometimes white lies are as good as it gets. So perhaps the answer is to continue to tell them, but to try to keep the occassions when we do so rare -- and always understand that when we tell white lies we do so at the risk of misunderstanding a situation and losing the opportunity to have a better relationship, or a better understanding or more knowledge.

 

[Brian-M]

Lying isn't wrong, it's stupid.

Or entertaining. What is a work of fiction but an elaborate lie created with the intent to entertain rather than deceive?

 

[Kaylee]

1) When it's harmless (Such as me saying "Hey guys, my real name is Bob Dufakakis and I just hitchkided to Mars! Tee hee hee hee!")

Yep, I know quite a few people who will always choose to tell a good story over a plain truth.

Here's what Bok probably said (heck, I returned the book) -- reputation of a good story teller is gained at the cost of being trusted.

And for the people I happen to know IRL, that is true. I know a few people I can rely on when I want to be amused, but I don't necc. rely on them if I need to know the actual truth. I'm not saying that is always going to be the case with everyone who will always choose to tell a good story over a plain truth -- but that is the way it worked out with those people I know IRL.

2) When lying is actually necessary to prevent a negative outcome

That old utilitarian philosophy again. I think a lot of us go by that, I've done so when I felt it was necc., forced into it actually -- but it has its risks as Bok points out.

 

[Kaylee]

When it's to a telemarketer.

Telling a lie to someone who has no right to the truth?

Channeling Bok here, I guess she would say that its much simpler to just hang up.

But I can understand the temptation. They use to make me so angry before it was possible to get your telephone number put on a "Do Not Call" list.

 

[Kaylee]

When it's to convert someone to your religion.

It's mandatory to lie for Jesus.

Interesting that you two mentioned religion. I guess this is your way of expressing your opinion about prosthelytizing? I don't particularly enjoy being the target of it either.

FWIW, Bok has an appendix at the back of her book where she includes a handful of philosophers' writings.

You might be interested to know that in one of his writings, Augustine lists 8 type of lies. The first type he considered to be the most deadly and one that must be shunned and avoided, and that is the lie uttered in the teaching of religion.

(No, my memory's not that good -- I xeroxed the appendix.)

(No. I am not a Christian.)

 

[Kaylee]

It's wrong when you feel it is .

That's objective!

 

[moebob]

Lying isn't wrong, it's stupid.

Yes it is! Now you have to remember the lie you told, plus ten more lies to back it up!
I really don't lie, except on the humor thread! I'm 55 years old, I don't have much, ( except, my word. ) If I say something, in the circles I run in, then it is so. If I owe someone 2 dollars, they forget, but I don't.
I think, lying is only justified, when you are trying not to hurt people's feelings, with lesser intelligence! Most of your closer friends are too smart for that anyway! You know, you can only skirt the issue, or change the subject so many times!
I guess the next time I ask the other half, ( The Man ) a question, I'm really gonna have to think about his answer!

 

[Kaylee]

We all tell lies to benefit our situations. The problems come in where these cause material hurt to others, or we start to fool ourselves.

Of course telling the truth is usually the better road if for no other reason than it's easier to remember.

Bok mentions that kind of lie also. In additon to the problems you mention and the ones I already mentioned upthread -- people can surprisingly be poor judges of when a lie will benefit them.

One case she goes into is when social scientists decide to lie to their test subjects so that they can get some good research done. She spends quite a bit of time on this subject in this book and also another book of hers that I read, Secrets: On the Ethics of Concealment and Revelation. She has worked as a university professor and is married to a former president of another university. No surprise that she would find this topic of interest. Lying to research subjects was so frequently done in the social sciences that it is difficult to find anyone to survey or test that isn't too skeptical to get any good results from.

That is just one example. She covers many other types of lies in the self-benefit category also and shows how it can often backfire to the individual or have costs to society, or both.

 

[The Man]

And who isn't your acknowledged enemy. I agree that would work and cover many if not most of life's situations.

One of the things Bok's brings up is that for a society to work, most of its members must be truthful most of the time. Otherwise people constantly doubt each other and that doubt becomes a real problem, even with the trivial things of day to day living.

Bok points out that even frequent liars rely on others to be truthful, which is ironic.

In the game of liars poker doubting each other (and yourself) is the norm. A society of liars (at least in my experience) is no more of a problem than one that is predominantly truthful. People are quite flexible in that regard. So the focus and determination goes to the objective evidence, even in a game of liars poker. Just as in a predominantly truthful society a liar might cause difficulties, in a society of liars one who tells the truth might cause the same difficulties. So the doubt might be better placed in that people will meet your expectations of them or just doubt your expectations of them, that way your doubts might serve you better in either case.


Is this the Bok you are referring to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Bok

The considerations you have cited sound quite intriguing, do you have any links or references that we might explore?

Even in your lies , some truth slips through!


Maurice Evans as "Dr. Zaius" in the 1968 movie "Planet of the Apes"

An effective lie often requires at least some truth, ironic as that is.

 

[The Man]

I guess the next time I ask the other half, ( The Man ) a question, I'm really gonna have to think about his answer!

You know I always lie, even when I'm lying.

 

[Kaylee]

There is no answer to "When is lying justified?", for the use of 'justify' implies a moral judgement, which requires a moral system. I do not think that there is any basis for a moral system, so I do not regard the question as meaningful in general.

Of course, I have my own moral system, but I know that it is something that is idiosyncratic, without any foundation, and something over which I have had no 'control'.

There are situations in which I am comfortable lying and situations in which I am not.

I am not under any illusion that my feelings in this matter are 'justified'.

You believe that there is no system based on right or wrong conduct that is meaningful? And that such a system cannot be shared by a community or society? I honestly don't recall many of your posts in detail, but I still find that difficult to believe of you.

 

[Kaylee]

Always!

Never!

Take your pick.


Both are lies.

Sometimes?

Huh?

At least a bit of truth in that, but all too often it is just the justification (either way) that is the actual lie.
<snipped>

Yes, I think that often people will lie about what their "justification" is. For example, they may assert that what they are doing is beneficial for their family -- but it can actually be the case that they are doing what is best for them and they are lying about that to others.

 

[JJM 777]

For many people, especially politicians, communication has no moral value, it is simply a means to attempt to achieve some objective. When people have an objective, they will say anything whatever might promote the objective, regardless of the truthfulness of the said things. Considering the risk of getting caught of lying of course, which would have an adverse effect on reaching the objective.

The press officer of US Army will say to people anything whatsoever might promote the objectives of the US Army, truthfulness of the information is no factor there.

 

[Kaylee]

When it might get you out of the ticket.
"Golly, the roads in Texas are so much better than those in Virginia I didn't realize how fast I going, Officer."
No ticket.
And this right after going through a measured mile course in 45 seconds... which works out to 90 mph, in a 60 mph posted area there.

Wow. That was really smooth.

But you know, the roads in Texas are really excellent. I got stopped for speeding also, before I even realized that I was speeding.

But I got a ticket.