When Does Abortion Become Wrong?

[merphie]

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Why?

For the reasons I have stated. I believe it is wrong because it is killing a human life for convenience. If they don't want kids they shouldn't have sex. If the want sex and no kids then they should practice some prevention method or get sterilized.

Does a fetus or baby mean so little to us that we can freely throw them away at will?

 

[CFLarsen]

merphie,

I'll summarize for you:

• Who are you keeping your wife "alive" for, yourself or her?
• Wasn't it your point that life is personality?
• Why don't you want to face the issues of genetic engineering before it becomes reality?
• If you have no study about women using abortion as contraceptive, why should we take this argument of yours seriously?
• If a brain dead person is not a person, why not switch off your brain dead wife?

 

[merphie]

merphie,

I'll summarize for you:

• Who are you keeping your wife "alive" for, yourself or her?
• Wasn't it your point that life is personality?
• Why don't you want to face the issues of genetic engineering before it becomes reality?
• If you have no study about women using abortion as contraceptive, why should we take this argument of yours seriously?
• If a brain dead person is not a person, why not switch off your brain dead wife?

Do you expect me to take you seriously? Why don't you read previous post where many of these issues have been discussed.

 

[thaiboxerken]

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For the reasons I have stated. I believe it is wrong because it is killing a human life for convenience.

Why is it wrong to kill a human life that is not an individual?

If they don't want kids they shouldn't have sex.

This is just silly. Sometimes sex isn't consentual. Sometimes mistakes are made where a consequence can be pregnancy.

If the want sex and no kids then they should practice some prevention method or get sterilized.

This is, again, just silly. Contraceptives sometimes fail.

Does a fetus or baby mean so little to us that we can freely throw them away at will?

It does to me. However, why should anyone feel different?

 

[CFLarsen]

Do you expect me to take you seriously? Why don't you read previous post where many of these issues have been discussed.

I expect you to take the questions seriously. If you refuse to answer them, just say so.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

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Since this subthread has been badly sidetracked by merphie, I thought I'd prune it back to the supposed core issue.

Originally posted by merphie

I have had a terrible time defining this for my personal view. I lean toward if the fetus is healthy with no danger to the woman or baby then an abortion should not be allowed. I would make exceptions for those who became pregnant due to a crime.

Interesting.

Okay, what's the moral basis for that distinction regarding rape? If we're keeping fetuses alive because they have moral value in their own right, are you saying that they have less value if they are the product of rape rather than a torn condom or something? How does that work? If it's a matter of emotional suffering for the woman, would that mean that women should be able to get an abortion if they really want one, but not if they only kind of want one?

To sum up, what's the actual basis for your position?

For the record, I do not feel it is ever appropriate to deny an abortion to a woman who wants one.

 

[merphie]

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Why is it wrong to kill a human life that is not an individual?

Why are they not an individual?

This is just silly. Sometimes sex isn't consentual. Sometimes mistakes are made where a consequence can be pregnancy.

I've allowed for crimes. What mistakes? Like two naked people tripping and just happen to land right?

This is, again, just silly. Contraceptives sometimes fail.

I know. My wife was on the pill when my son was conceived. So abortion is a good method for birth control?

It does to me. However, why should anyone feel different?

If that is the case then what meaning does an adult have? Why not kill anyone whom you don't like?

 

[merphie]

I expect you to take the questions seriously. If you refuse to answer them, just say so.

I never take you seriously. I have already discussed most of your questions and it is not my fault you can't keep up in the conversation.

Any answer given to you is pointless because you don't read it.

 

[thaiboxerken]

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Why are they not an individual?

An individual being is not directly dependant on another for nutrition and respiration.

I've allowed for crimes. What mistakes? Like two naked people tripping and just happen to land right?

I'd say a crime is a mistake. Also, sometimes people just like to hump. Sometimes they realize that it was a mistake.

I know. My wife was on the pill when my son was conceived. So abortion is a good method for birth control?

It's more reliable than the pill.

If that is the case then what meaning does an adult have? Why not kill anyone whom you don't like?

Adults are individuals.

 

[merphie]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What?

Since this subthread has been badly sidetracked by merphie, I thought I'd prune it back to the supposed core issue.

Nice one. You are such a willing party.

Okay, what's the moral basis for that distinction regarding rape? If we're keeping fetuses alive because they have moral value in their own right, are you saying that they have less value if they are the product of rape rather than a torn condom or something? How does that work? If it's a matter of emotional suffering for the woman, would that mean that women should be able to get an abortion if they really want one, but not if they only kind of want one?

To sum up, what's the actual basis for your position?

For the record, I do not feel it is ever appropriate to deny an abortion to a woman who wants one.

A pregnancy due to rape was forced on the woman against her free will. Anything else is a product of her actions and free will. People must take responsibility for their actions. It is well known a condom is not 100%. People must realize there is an effect from their action. Should people be allowed to drink an drive? Is emotional stress a good reason for doing it? At this point I feel it's all about responsibility for one's actions.

 

[thaiboxerken]

We're on the same page so far, then. How do you see this making a difference to how we should behave towards these two things?

I think the toy that was alive should be discarded, as it's no longer alive and is just taking up resources.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think it's rather silly that Merphie thinks a fetus is an individual being that deserves to live.. unless it was concieved by a crime. I guess bastards are not worthy of life in his eyes.

Weird.

 

[merphie]

I think it's rather silly that Merphie thinks a fetus is an individual being that deserves to live.. unless it was concieved by a crime. I guess bastards are not worthy of life in his eyes.

Weird.

How nice. You complain about my view point and state something is weird when you would advocate the destruction of any fetus.

 

[thaiboxerken]

My position is consistent, though. Yours is not. You are trying to equivolate abortion with infanticide. Now, you are basically saying that infanticide is ok, as long as the child was concieved by a criminal act.

You really do have weird beliefs.

 

[CFLarsen]

merphie,

Do you really think that there is a difference between a fetus conceived in a benign way and a fetus being conceived by rape?

Why do you blame the fetus?

 

[merphie]

My position is consistent, though. Yours is not. You are trying to equivolate abortion with infanticide. Now, you are basically saying that infanticide is ok, as long as the child was concieved by a criminal act.

You really do have weird beliefs.

that is your opinion of the matter. I would make an allowance for someone who is a victim of a crime. You think because I support one idea I should support everything? Why would it matter to you? You are saying "infacticide" is OK no matter what the circumstance. You beliefs are stranger than mine.

I don't believe people should use abortion as a means of birth control. People should take responsibility in their actions.

 

[merphie]

merphie,

Do you really think that there is a difference between a fetus conceived in a benign way and a fetus being conceived by rape?

Why do you blame the fetus?

I am not blaming the fetus. I think it is a right thing to do for the sake of the woman. She didn't willingly participate in the creation. I would hope she would chose another method.

For you and thaiboxerken there is no grey area. You are saying you are either for it or against it. So all abortions should be allowed in any circumstance.

Would the same apply to adults? Do you support the death penalty? If so, why does one person deserve death and others don't? Why don't we execute people for any crime committed?

 

[cajela]

I really hate those arguments where people say "you had sex, you know the risks." They seem to think that having a baby is a punishment for the evil naughty sex. I think you should have a baby because you *want* to. Whether you decided that you wanted it before or after conception is up to you. But having a baby because you have to face the consequences of having sex is a terrible reason.

The problem is that it's a process of development from blob'o'cells to baby, with no very clear distinguishing line. Even birth isn't that clear a line - a good friend of mine never technically "gave birth" because she had a caesar a couple of weeks early because of blood pressure problems. How you'd distinguish that from a 8.5 month abortion is beyond me.

My opinion on what should be, given that one has to have arbitrary lines, is a 3-stage process.
up to 3 months - woman's choice, pure and simple.
3-6 months - woman's choice, in consultation with a counsellor and her doctor.
over 6 months - requires approval from a medical panel.

Since 6 months is survivable, and there's brain activity, I think it's wrong around about there to arbitrarily kill the fetus. If you waited that long, you passed the choice cut-off, development has gone too far. If you don't want a kid, then adoption is your remaining option.

 

[merphie]

I really hate those arguments where people say "you had sex, you know the risks." They seem to think that having a baby is a punishment for the evil naughty sex. I think you should have a baby because you *want* to. Whether you decided that you wanted it before or after conception is up to you. But having a baby because you have to face the consequences of having sex is a terrible reason.

Is my opinion not as valid as yours?

My opinion on what should be, given that one has to have arbitrary lines, is a 3-stage process.
up to 3 months - woman's choice, pure and simple.
3-6 months - woman's choice, in consultation with a counsellor and her doctor.
over 6 months - requires approval from a medical panel.

Since 6 months is survivable, and there's brain activity, I think it's wrong around about there to arbitrarily kill the fetus. If you waited that long, you passed the choice cut-off, development has gone too far. If you don't want a kid, then adoption is your remaining option.

So someone else should be given the responsibility past 3 months?

So you are saying infantcide is ok as long as everyone agrees and there is no brain activity?

I hate those arguments where people say you waited too long and should have thought about it ealier.

 

[thaiboxerken]

that is your opinion of the matter.

My opinion is that it's weird. It is a fact that you are inconsistent. You want us to believe that a fetus is a baby and that killing babies concieved of rape is ok.

I would make an allowance for someone who is a victim of a crime. You think because I support one idea I should support everything? Why would it matter to you? You are saying "infacticide" is OK no matter what the circumstance. You beliefs are stranger than mine.

I'm saying that a fetus is not a baby, so it's not infanticide at all. However, if I did think a fetus was a baby, I would think killing it would be wrong regardless of how the baby was concieved.

I don't believe people should use abortion as a means of birth control. People should take responsibility in their actions.

Ad-nauseum. You haven't explained WHY you feel this way, only that you do.