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When Does Abortion Become Wrong?

Is it my imagination or are most of the people who argue "for" abortion either male or lesbian?

When you talk to a young woman who is considering an abortion, you can be sure that there is a human life at stake no matter what you might think it looks like under a microscope.
 
peptoabysmal said:
Is it my imagination or are most of the people who argue "for" abortion either male or lesbian?

When you talk to a young woman who is considering an abortion, you can be sure that there is a human life at stake no matter what you might think it looks like under a microscope.
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Uh... What about all the women who actually have abortions? They lesbian? :hit:
 
peptoabysmal said:
Is it my imagination or are most of the people who argue "for" abortion either male or lesbian?

When you talk to a young woman who is considering an abortion, you can be sure that there is a human life at stake no matter what you might think it looks like under a microscope.
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I've known women who have had abortions and I've friends who've had abortions and from that group I'd say there is a wide spectrum of reaction to the thought of abortion. I don't think there is any "standard" female reaction that is markedly different to “male” viewpoints.
 
Is it my imagination or are most of the people who argue "for" abortion either male or lesbian?
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Not in this discussion - there seems to be a pretty low level of female participation. Probably waiting for the guys to get bored and go see whats on TV. Probably thinking that we don't have a clue and will eventually lose interest and start talking football.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Really, the whole abortion question is rooted in the problem of determining what is life, and what is man? Which seem to be two of the fundamental questions that the entirety of philosophy seeks to answer.
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Those are both actually red herrings, sorry. Neither "What is life?" nor "What is man/woman/human" is the pertinent question.

The pertinent question is, "What is it about adult, normal humans that makes their lives special?".

I'm assuming, of course, that our goal is to have a moral view with a basis in observable facts rather than one pulled out of thin air. If normal adults are special and morally valuable, so that we shouldn't kill them, what precise qualities are we basing that judgement on?

As far as I'm concerned, the answer is that adult humans are special because of their complex mental lives. I am also fairly sure most people agree with this if you pin them down on it, since few people have a problem with turning off the life support for human bodies whose mental lives have irrevocably ceased. Extending this view to human bodies whose special mental lives have not yet begun is very hard to avoid, but nonetheless people will do their damnedest to avoid making the connection.

It's not going to be easy to arrive at a solution, and that's why I distrust the easy-sounding answers on both sides of the debate: I suspect neither side has sat down and thoughtfully considered all the ramifications, explored their definitions and what they necessarily hinge upon, or plumbed the depths of the concepts involved. It seems to boil down to "God" versus "my body, my business", which seems way too simplistic.

But then, I have a tendency to overthink things.
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I think that's a bad summary, and that if you've overthunk some aspects of this issue you've also underthunk some of them.

The reason this issue is a problem is because our culture has a terribly strong taboo against infanticide. We think that our taboo against it makes us morally superior to other cultures that practised infanticide or still practise it. The fact that I've said this at all will probably pull some well-meaning sort like Harry Keogh out of the woodwork who will feel absolutely compelled to explain that anyone who questions this taboo is a sick, sick subhuman.

Meanwhile (as a society) we are happy to unplug adult "vegetables", and we constantly kill cats, dogs, sheep, cows, chickens and horses because they are unwanted or tasty, despite the fact that by any objective yardstick these creatures are more deserving of respect and consideration than a six month old human poop tube.

So while we can manage (as a society) to be sensible about abortion, since out of sight is out of mind, as soon as the fetus looks like a baby the infanticide taboo kicks in.

Not that I'm actually advocating infanticide for healthy infants: the little poop tubes are in enormous demand for adoption, and it's never a problem to find people who will be enormously happy to take charge of an infant that the mother doesn't want to take care of. I'm just saying that if no one wanted one, killing it would be less morally troublesome than euthanasing an unwanted dog. Which is once again not to say that I'm in favour of it, just that our society tolerates it.
 
peptoabysmal said:

When you talk to a young woman who is considering an abortion, you can be sure that there is a human life at stake no matter what you might think it looks like under a microscope.
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I have. I think this is a good point--the women I have spoken with (both close friends and students) are very aware of the magnitude of their decision. One even chose to abort while wishing she did not have the choice to make--it was such an important decision, in her mind.

I have heard (not here, thankfully) people claim that these women treat this decision trivially, and for that reason they should not be trusted with it. Although this may well be true for some, I have not met them. The women I have spoken with who have been faced with this decision know full well what their decision means. I have nothing but respect for these women (admittedly a small sample), and find them the best argument for "it is the woman's choice".
 
Mercutio, I think we have a somewhat larger sample here in Canada. We droppped our laws making abortion illegal. The year before, when a woman and her doctor would do extensive jail time we had on the order of 80,000 estimate of an estimate abortions. The year after we had (order) 75,000.
If anyone cares I can probably harden up those numbers.

Women do take this very seriously, and since they are the ones who have to make and deal with the decision, let them get on with it.

For sample n=1; I have a friend who was working for a pro choice group when she was seduced and left pregnant. She decided to keep the baby - choice means choice.

I'm going to add that I'm not impressed with the level of discussion on this topic. I recommend everybody take a break and read Jonathon Glover's Causing death and Saving Lives for an analysis of :

Is it wrong to kill somebody? Why?

Is it right to spend a million dollars to save three men trapped in a mine when you could put level crossing signs on hundreds of tracks that would each save three lives per year? Why?

Is abortion wrong? Why?

Is infanticide wrong?

When is a life not worth living? Why?

I have yet to finish the book, after 4 years, cause it's just too hard thinking, and when I put it down I have to start all over again.

If life begins at the moment of conception is every women who wears an IUD guilty of murder?

If the life of a foetus is sacred, why do we not hold funerals for miscarriages?

I'm ranting, aren't I? I will stop and cool down.
 
I did not question the right of a woman to have an abortion until I became and athiest. That was when it became clear to me that the aborted fetus was gone for good. It would not go back to heaven to try again. It would not be reincarted and become a new being. It was gone and gone for good. Of course if it indangered the mother then she would be in the same boat. Thats it for her.

But what bugged me is the fact that the vast majority of abortion are for convience. It is not a convientit time for the woman to concieve so the baby has got to go. And most of these abortions are to sex the child. The majority of people in the world happen to believe that male children are better than female children. So women carring a girl will not give a second thought to aborting it so they can try again to have a boy. After all buddists and Hundu's believe in reincarnation, so it may well be the same aborted fetus that will come back as a boy. I don't know how often this happens here in the US but it does happen.

PBS had a series a number of years ago where they stuck a camera in a womans uteras. And followed the development from firtilization to birth. If your looking for that magic point that makes the fetus a human, it was abundantly clear that it happend the moment that the egg and sperm came together. At that point the two seprate beings combined thier DNA and created an other unique being.

In a perfict world I would like to see abortion legal but rare. Women should be able to make the choice, but it should be an informed choice. And then knowing the full truth it is up to the woman to decide if what she is doing is really the right thing to do.
 
SRW said:

But what bugged me is the fact that the vast majority of abortion are for convience.
And most of these abortions are to sex the child. The majority of people in the world happen to believe that male children are better than female children. So women carring a girl will not give a second thought to aborting it so they can try again to have a boy.

PBS had a series a number of years ago where they stuck a camera in a womans uteras. And followed the development from firtilization to birth. If your looking for that magic point that makes the fetus a human, it was abundantly clear that it happend the moment that the egg and sperm came together. At that point the two seprate beings combined thier DNA and created an other unique being.

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You will have to convince me that "the vast majority of abortion are for convenience".

You will have to convince me that "most of these abortions are to sex the child".

After that "magic point" an IUD will interfere with the ability of the zygote (the human being) to attach to the wall of the womb and it will be expelled. (She's late.)

Is this wrong? Is it abortion? Is it homicide?
 
Recently, here in Saskatchewan, a young woman was informed that her baby (foetus) was very badly deformed, likely to die, and likely to have a very low quality of life. She decided to have a late abortion and was flown to Vancouver, BC to undergo the procedure, which does entail some risks to her. In Vancouver she was consulted by a doctor, and convinced to forgo the abortion and have the baby.

The baby was born without limbs, and with some of its organs outside its body. They were flown back to SK where the baby was stabilised (treated for infections) and then released to its mother who took it home to her remote Northern community. She was shown how to treat the baby to reduce the chance of infection and was supported by the nursing station in her community. The baby died in 2 weeks. This might have been prevented by a hospital stay; there would have been no doubt in the minds of the doctors in the hospital that they were sending the baby home to die.
Thou shalt not kill, but needst not strive
Officiously to keep alive.
The cost of this birth to our health care system is reliably estimated (by a medical bureaucrat I know) at $100K. Fortunately the socialist hordes got their start in Saskabush, so economics played a minor and unstated role in any of these decisions.

Where was the wrong in this situation if there was any? Would this abortion have been wrong? murder?
When the baby was born, did it have an autonomous meaningful life? a life?
Would a lethal injection (infanticide) have been wrong?
Suppose they had not treated for infection but allowed the fever to carry the baby off? Would this have been any different than infanticide? than a late term abortion?

With respect,
Tedly
A man who has no answers, but is trying hard to formulate the questions.



Sorry for hogging the posts, but this is a new topic.
 
tedly said:
You will have to convince me that "the vast majority of abortion are for convenience".

You will have to convince me that "most of these abortions are to sex the child".

After that "magic point" an IUD will interfere with the ability of the zygote (the human being) to attach to the wall of the womb and it will be expelled. (She's late.)

Is this wrong? Is it abortion? Is it homicide?
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You misunderstand my position, I don't care what you believe, and I don't care to convince you or anyone else.

The only point I made that is relevant is that abortion should be legal and rare.

If you wish to argue that point with me then I would like to hear your arguments.
 
BPSCG said:
Tedly, SRW, how did you vote? And why did you vote that way?
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Don't know/don't care/what a stupid question, actually because I do not have an answer.

My personal belief is that abortion is a necessary evil that is going to happen no matter what I believe.

I have had two of my "mistakes" aborted, that I know of. One
I did not know about until after the fact, the second I had to help make the decision. I was for having it, she against, she got her way. I still have mixed feelings about this, a tinge of guilt now and then, a sense of loss at times, but also the feeling that it was what she wanted, so it is not "wrong".
 
Dear BPSCG

I didn't vote, because the vote closest to me is too flippant.

I'm fairly sure this is Mark Twain:

"I was pleased to be able to give an answer that was as ready as it was scientifically accurate. I told him 'I don't know'."

I think I can do 'Is this abortion, infanticide, execution, rescue, operation..... right or wrong. I know I can't do is Abortion right or wrong, but I'm working on it. It is kinda mental chewing gum, exercises the same muscles but provides no real satisfaction.
 
Dear SRW

Using an IUD is legal and very common. It acts after the moment of conception. Do you consider this an abortion? If not, when does interfering with the devlopment become abortion?
 
tedly said:
Dear SRW

Using an IUD is legal and very common. It acts after the moment of conception. Do you consider this an abortion? If not, when does interfering with the devlopment become abortion?
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Do you consider this an abortion?

If what you describe is accurate then technically yes, the same as the "morning after pill" is technically an abortion.

I would disagree with your earlier suggestion that a fetus is a human being. I made the distinction that it is an individual being, not a human being. Calling a fetus a human being gives it legal status which I am not willing to do.
 
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