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What's the Harm Website

First of all, I would consider withholding a working therapy in favor of a bogus treatment to be abuse.

Secondly ... did you google "holding therapy", or did you only assume it consisted of holding the child simply because it was called "holding therapy"?

Did you follow the links on the page itself?

http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archive/ctapun/9708/76.htm

Oh, I see. I did click that link, but only skimmed the second page and didn't notice the part you quoted. I did read the whole first page, which didn't say anything about lying on top of the child or withholding food. The harm that was described was self-inflicted.
 
So the bottom line is that even when psychics (or dream interpreters) have information actually consistent with the crime, their assistance is still of no value in solving said crime.
Frequently, posters here ask when an event such as 9/11 occurs: "How come no psychic predicted it?" Based on Mr. Linscott's experience, perhaps someone did predict it, but didn't publicly disclose it for fear of becoming a suspect.
 
I've seen people claiming to have prected 9/11, there was one on here recently (although the dream he described was a very poor match), but as in oh so many cases there seems to be a massive dearth of people who can be seen to have predicted it prior to the event.
 
I was going to make my own thread about this website. I have my own issues with it, many of the harms do not seem directly caused by belief in the thing in question. Sometimes the relation between the harm and the belief being talked about is shaky. Often I feel the failure of critical thinking lies elsewhere then the actual belief itself such as in reckless behavior or something else.

Examples;

The ghost section asks "What's the harm in believing in ghosts?". Several of them seem to be caused more by believing ghosts are dangerous rather than simply that they exist and a few others, such as the second one, are caused more by people recklessly trespassing on other people's property which is foolish regardless of basis in unscientific beliefs. I think the fourth one is the most convincing though, since the harm was directly caused by ascribing unexplained events to ghosts rather than doing a proper investigation, though. I would've included "catfish" under the lister parties harmed, though.

Of the four cases cited in the evolution denial section, 2 were caused more by the fact of disagreement than by whether or not creationism is foolish. The confrontations could've just as easily been between people of differing political or moral philosophies. Both examples were caused as much by people believing in evolution as they were by people believing in creationism. Same with the single example in the moon landing hoax section, which was caused by not thinking critically, but that lack of critical thinking was in the decision to harrass a stranger about a touchy subject, not in the personal belief itself. I would class these as "hate crimes", which I don't think the site's creator wanted to include. The other two examples were caused by people not paying heed to rules they should've been wello aware of, and again, the decision to be reckless in breaking rules is separate from the decision to believe in pseudoscience. I don't think one caused the other.

In the UFO section, again, 2 of the three examples were caused by sheer recklessness/rule-breaking. The third example is the famous Heaven's Gate cult.

In the Holocaust denial section, all but one example is due to laws against it in France/Germany. So the harm relates more to rule-breaking. The remaining example is someone being fired when their boss found stuff they posted on the web. If this counts as harm caused by thinking uncritically, I can list cases of atheists being fired in the bible belt as harm caused by thinking skeptically.

Some of the examples under "Scientology" sound more like rumor-mongering and implying correlation is causation, with descriptions such as "His body was found floating, fully clothed, off the Dunedin shore. His wallet was missing and his apartment back in Switzerland had been burglarized. He had been a member of Scientology." and "Philip was a promising student at MIT who was raised in Scientology. He committed suicide by jumping from a classroom building, on L.Ron Hubbard's birthday. His friends and classmates could not understand why." or "Originally from San Francisco, she was aboard a Scientology ship docked in Morocco when her body was found with a bullet wound to the head. There was no coroner's investigation of the death and many strange circumstances surrounding it.". One example even says, "He achieved a high level in Scientology, and then moved to Nova Scotia. There he was accused of sexualling abusing a girl. He committed suicide. His story is illustrative of how Scientology can ruin lives." How? It just says he got accused of sexual abuse after moving to Nova Scotia to do Scientology. Either some of these descriptions are very badly written, or some of these examples are fear-mongering. (I just read another example "He travelled to Clearwater, Florida to get a refund from Scientology. He was killed in an accident the day after he arrived." Which reads like conspiracy weaving. This one too, "He lived, ate and breathed Scientology, and traveled to Los Angeles to study it further. He fell to his death from the sixth floor of a church building in Hollywood. His mother said the suicide note found was not in his handwriting, and sued." These are mostly the only ones that sound like the site's contributors were just finding any mysterious death of a scientologist and attributing it to spooky shenanigans. Fortunately the other examples are less rumor monger-like and go more into people being driven in debt or harm from not treating psychiatric disorders.

Other examples;
Rituals are harmful because "During a social club ritual initiation, someone mistook a fully loaded gun for one loaded with blanks. He died of a gunshot wound - Unless practicing carelessness was part of practicing the ritual this is simply a basic violation of basic gun safety.
Voodoo is harmful because - "Coworkers accused Amy of placing "voodoo powder" on another coworker's doorstep. She was fired, and sued to get her job back" - Believing accusations of other people without evidence is always foolish whether those accusations involve voodoo or non-supernatural misdeeds.

That pretty much covers all the specific examples I think are problems on the site. most of the other examples do seem to cite harm caused by the belief in question.
 
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I agree with crocoshark that it could be far better.

I think a wiki "whatstheharm" would be ideal. It's an important activist tool and could be leveraged so much harder with a large community contributing and refining.
 
Crocoshark: again, please read the FAQ question about proximate cause (#3).

I can understand how pursuing quack therapy leads to harm when you avoid proven treatments. No one is arguing that you have a point with proximate cause.

I can't accept your reasoning with the ritual that lead to a gun death. It's clearly not the ritual that caused the death. They were playing, just like shooting blanks on movie set is playing, are gun violence scenes something we should be against because of their inherent risk too? Or are we ok with that because they have strict standards when it comes to equipment?

If you're going to make the case that rituals have some kind of inherent property that causes people to be stupid and mindless, that's a huge stretch.
 
If you're going to make the case that rituals have some kind of inherent property that causes people to be stupid and mindless, that's a huge stretch.

i don't think so, not a stretch at all, sometimes being a mindless stupid ritualist can be a useful or non-useful temporary trait, depends on what you are doing.

Doesn't it?
 
i don't think so, not a stretch at all, sometimes being a mindless stupid ritualist can be a useful or non-useful temporary trait, depends on what you are doing.

Doesn't it?

Being a ritualist doesn't require you to be mindless or stupid.
 
So in the denying evolution section, we've got a creationist that's lost their job, one person who died in a bar fight over a debate (doesn't the harm in boozing and being a psycho trump the evolution denial here?), a teacher that was beaten up, and the ID group who had to pay the court costs in the Dover trial... Sorry, I'm underwhelmed. How about the opportunity cost to society when medicine and psychology are progressing in the light of evolution and not much else (genetics and evo psych)

It's a really good site I just don't see the point of these massive stretches that aren't much help in making the case for serious harm.
 
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Being a ritualist doesn't require you to be mindless or stupid.

No , perhaps not, but if one could be mindless or stupid, ritual could easily be one of those useful tools one can hijack from the more aware and intelligent to cover the utter stupid mindlessness of some rituals one might mindlessly and stupidly gotten into.

The only place for ritual is in the hands of a robot.
 
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So in the denying evolution section, we've got a creationist that's lost their job, one person who died in a bar fight over a debate (doesn't the harm in boozing and being a psycho trump the evolution denial here?), a teacher that was beaten up, and the ID group who had to pay the court costs in the Dover trial... Sorry, I'm underwhelmed. How about the opportunity cost to society when medicine and psychology are progressing in the light of evolution and not much else (genetics and evo psych)

It's a really good site I just don't see the point of these massive stretches that aren't much help in making the case for serious harm.

sure , if you have something to contribute, I'm in no doubt WTH would welcome that, however the site appears open in its mission statement as to its aims and limits.
I do actually think you have a point, but I'm sure it is not a paying job to manage that site, so if you are saying more work could be done, sure, it could.....at some point...

It works sufficiently for me though, to get the message that its not all wunderful to believe just any old t'ing.....yes?
 
So in the denying evolution section....

I'm underwhelmed. How about the opportunity cost to society when medicine and psychology are progressing in the light of evolution and not much else (genetics and evo psych)

It's a really good site I just don't see the point of these massive stretches that aren't much help in making the case for serious harm.

I see your point, but that's beyond the scope of the site. The purpose of the site is to show concrete harms that can be documented. If you can take that "opportunity cost to society" idea and put a number on it, I'll add it to the site. But I'm not sure how one would go about doing that.
 
I split the posts about predicting 9-11 off to their very own thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
I see your point, but that's beyond the scope of the site. The purpose of the site is to show concrete harms that can be documented. If you can take that "opportunity cost to society" idea and put a number on it, I'll add it to the site. But I'm not sure how one would go about doing that.

One thing I've always liked about the site are the number of small, less dramatic harms - trespassing charges, small law suits, misdiagnosis. Individually they aren't much but taken together it paints a very clear picture of how all these leftover superstitions are negatively impacting us.
 

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