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What's the CIA point of vue ?

Pad

Student
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Jan 6, 2003
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I don't know. ;) But I've just found an interesting article written by Graham E. Fuller, a former high-ranking CIA officer and former vice chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence Council.

http://www.iht.com/articles/86370.html

What do you think of it ?

Here is the full article :


Old Europe – or old America?
From power to consensus

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's recent scathing remark that it was only "Old Europe" that opposed the U.S. plan to attack Iraq produced a sharp reaction from France and Germany, the countries he obviously had in mind. But who really represents the "old" thinking here? The better case might be made that it is America that stands for "old" values, and that France and Germany represent "New Europe" - or even "the coming world."

Think about it. France and Germany have put five centuries of wars behind them, including two devastating world wars, to form a new union with shared currency and desires to forge a broad common foreign policy. Such a step is revolutionary among ancient nation-state rivals with different cultures.

But it doesn't stop there. The European Union is a remarkable experiment - the first time in history when states have been willing to give up real hunks of their own national sovereignty in order to join a new civilizational project. Turks, Bulgarians and Latvians are begging to pay the considerable admission fee to be let in.

The reigning premises of the Union are that states must be truly democratic, they must protect human rights and civil liberties, and that war among its members should be an unthinkable option. These states see themselves as a gradually expanding community, acquiring ever new members and geographical spread - but only after they meet strict criteria. They aspire to form a new force in the world - and are well on the way. This is the first time we have witnessed the emergence of an "empire" built on consensus and common desire rather than power and conquest - hardly the stuff of the "Old Europe."

It is America that represents the "Old World." This is not a pejorative aspersion. The United States now sees itself as the benign hegemon - or policeman - of the world, undercutting any and all efforts by potential rivals, friendly or not, to cast a shadow over overwhelming U.S. power.

This Pax Americana may have many positive as well as negative features, but because it is founded on monopolization of power rather than consent, it can hardly be described as the "New World." When other states, even friends, feel they have no voice in the way the unelected sheriff runs the town, we are working on principles that have been the basis of the "old order" down through the ages, according to which power, and not international law, holds sway.

But isn't America the "new world" in terms of its multiethnic character? Not really. While America is a remarkable and pretty successful experiment at multiculturalism, it is almost unique in being a nation of immigrants in a world of ethnic homelands. Europe, which has forged its homelands into a new cooperative whole, is the model for a world in which immigrant nations are rare.

Power will still be required to meet the challenges of a dangerous world in which Saddam Husseins and Kim Jong Ils will never disappear entirely. But it will be the power of a gradually expanding international community of consent that will slowly emerge to fulfill that function.

This is not some utopian sketch of an ideal. The world has for some time been heading slowly and painfully in the direction of freely established communities of common consent. The United Nations can be frustrating, even ludicrous, in its dithering and querulousness - but so can the U.S. Congress. These are not the fastest mechanisms in the world to get results. But think how far we have come in less than a century: An international organization is starting to exercise real clout on numerous issues, including human rights, standards of behavior, international fact-finding and inspections, peace-keeping and the provision of troops. This reality has forced even the Bush administration to seek UN blessing and support where possible. These, too, are signs of a world evolving away from perpetuation of rule by power and toward communities of consent.

America's task should be to work with this evolutionary process, not against it. That doesn't mean we don't go to war in Iraq, but it does mean a high premium should be placed on trying to work according to the forces of the future, not the king-of-the-mountain rules of the last several millenniums.

Of course, France and Germany have their own interests and agendas, which are often scathingly dismissed as petty and narrow by Washington policymakers. But doesn't the United States also have its own narrow, parochial interests? Don't Americans, too, want oil? Doesn't America, too, want the vulnerable oil states of the world to "buy American" when the arms dealers come around? Isn't it domestic American politics that grants the most right-wing government in Israel's history carte blanche in doing what it wants in the occupied territories? Doesn't Washington thrive on the inability of other states to ramp up huge arms budgets?

Before America's eyes, the French and the Germans have turned a fateful corner, beyond which the old automatic alliance with the United States no longer holds. Insults aside, those days are not coming back.
 
This is not some utopian sketch of an ideal.

That is exactly what that article is, and the author knew that is what intellectuals would think it was that he was saying and why he felt it important to clarify it.

Let's face the facts--the EU is an "experiment" but it is still too young to know whether or not it will fail. Any nation-state system can say they are "protecting" civil liberties, but in many EU states that have a socialist income tax of 65% total wages, many people cannot act on those liberties with flexibility, can they? Is it possible to be a slave to the state and told that you are not?

America does not want to mirror the socialist monster forming in the EU, a nation-state collective run by a non-elected bureaucracy in Brussels. Giving the Europeans a right to vote for their elected leaders at the EU level would be a start.

Those facts aside, I do find the article to be a utopian argument, and I also think it is ironic that the author would hint that America could possibly be thinking in the "old", when any split from NATO and the EU by the United States would represent the true breaking of the "old ways".

The words of General Washington who later became the first President of the United States comes to mind here: "Beware of entangling alliances."

President Washington was right. When entangling alliances interfere directly or indirectly with the national security of the United States, it is time to cast those alliances off and reform them, reshape them into those things that can protect the country and its people. That is the only thing that matters.

JK
 
Thanks.......

Yet another article (along with Shanek's in another thread to name another of many) that have made me look at the way I see the world.

I should have stayed off here, I'm learning enough to change from being a bigot! (Seriously I am learning).

Jedi.....

Listen man, its all this "Our way is better than your way" shiBe that causes all the trouble, religeous, cultural and military.

Yes we have high taxation in Europe, so what? Even under Right of center Govs we Still have high taxation, just not AS high.

That dosn't follow that we are some kind of "USSR" in waiting, what it does mean however is that for all its faults (waiting times etc) we can recieve hospital treatment without the worry of getting a second mortgage. When we need drugs we get them for a small cost (£6 ish) can every legal FREE citizen in the US say that?

Its a sense of social responsibility that makes us do the things we do, our Liberal party actually campaigned in the last election on the basis that they would RAISE tax to cover education and health needs, they did rather well considering.

Much as I have derided (to my own detriment I see now) the French and Germans, they have systems (Certainly with regard to health) that make ours (Which I have stated suits me) look poor.


Why is it that in your view that if its not American its socialist at best or heaven knows what at worst??
 
Re: Thanks.......

Reginald said:
Why is it that in your view that if its not American its socialist at best or heaven knows what at worst??

Well, America is not a socialist country. We are a republic.

Also, I do not agree with you that taxation is status quo among governments right of center. Governments do not create wealth--they spend the money "the people" earn that is taken from "the people" in the form of taxes.

It was the utopia message that really irks me about the article. There is a class of people that during the Cold War became very attached to NATO. It is almost like an aristocracy of some sort. Debating the worthiness of NATO is nothing new--it has been debated since the Berlin Wall fell. I lived in Germany for almost four years.

Now, the United States has done nothing to put cracks or wedges in the NATO alliance. France and Germany have done that by turning their backs on Turkey, another NATO member. The key to the NATO alliance is that when a NATO member asks for help the other countries give them that help. That is what the alliance is. Germany and France have redefined by themselves what the alliance is.

Alliances are defined at their conception, and if a nation that was a signatory to them decides to change what they mean at a later stage, the alliance is thrown into the garbage can and a new one is debated and agreed to. International treaties are not redefined only when it matches a country's political leanings at a given moment in history. That is not how the treaty system works.

If "socialism" and 65% wage taxes are so cool and fashionable amongst the European people, especially France, why did France almost elect a very far-right candidate to run the country? Did Le Pen gain popularity because he pushed a 65% wage tax? Does the British BNP push 65% taxes? Why are they becoming very popular?

No, Le Pen gained popularity because Europe is unsteady right now and in turmoil. There is nothing stabilizing about the EU agenda. Nothing. It is a newly evolving nation-state system and in history, all new nation-states evolve from, you guessed it, war. This is the first peaceful attempt to unify the continent of Europe. It is also being unified under the objectives of Adolf Hitler, remarkably. Adolf Hitler wanted to make the European continent a socialist nation-state system and that is exactly what the EU is, minus the Nazi party. The EU is on the left.

Everything about the new Europe may look rosey to you, but it alarms me in variety of ways. Only time will tell if my hunches on the matter are correct.

JK
 
Think about it. France and Germany have put five centuries of wars behind them, including two devastating world wars, to form a new union with shared currency and desires to forge a broad common foreign policy. Such a step is revolutionary among ancient nation-state rivals with different cultures.

The reason that Germany and France put five centuries of war behind them is because the main belligerant, Germany, had been thoroughly beaten in two world wars.

Common currency? As if that's working swimmingly! He also fails to point out that the Danes rejected the single currency in a referendum, and that British sentiment towards EMU continues to harden. Not to mention that very serious and deleterious economic effects this ill-judged project is having.

Revolutionary steps? So were communism and the Final Solution.

The European Union is a remarkable experiment - the first time in history when states have been willing to give up real hunks of their own national sovereignty in order to join a new civilizational project. Turks, Bulgarians and Latvians are begging to pay the considerable admission fee to be let in.

Willing to give up chunks of sovereignty? Both Ireland and Denmark voted against surrendering sovreignty top the EU,a nd on both occasions the EU (and to their shame National Governments) ran roughshod over the will of the people.

The reigning premises of the Union are that states must be truly democratic, they must protect human rights and civil liberties, and that war among its members should be an unthinkable option. These states see themselves as a gradually expanding community, acquiring ever new members and geographical spread - but only after they meet strict criteria.

Truly democratic? Opinion polls demonstrated that a consistent and large majority of Germans opposed giving up the D-Mark for the Euro. They were ignored, and the economic crisis Germany faces has been excacerbated by the decision of the German government to ignore the will of the people?

Protect human rights? One word: Srebernica.

But isn't America the "new world" in terms of its multiethnic character? Not really. While America is a remarkable and pretty successful experiment at multiculturalism, it is almost unique in being a nation of immigrants in a world of ethnic homelands. Europe, which has forged its homelands into a new cooperative whole, is the model for a world in which immigrant nations are rare.

The only reason Europe has been able to forge anything is due to the American military preventing the whole continent being absorbed into the Soviet Empire. Given the serious demographic crisis facing most European countries, it's likely that they will have to become countries of mass immigration if they're to survive.

This is not some utopian sketch of an ideal. The world has for some time been heading slowly and painfully in the direction of freely established communities of common consent.

Yes it is. Communism didn't consent to it's own collapse, after all. Bor are Islamic fundamentalists or brutal, dictatorial regimes amenable to dialogue and reason.

An international organization is starting to exercise real clout on numerous issues, including human rights, standards of behavior, international fact-finding and inspections, peace-keeping and the provision of troops.

Srebernica. Saddam's flouting of UN resolutions. Nor did the UN have much involvement in deposing Milosevic.

The United Nations can be frustrating, even ludicrous, in its dithering and querulousness - but so can the U.S. Congress.

The US congress is a democratically elected body. The UN has Col. Ghaddafi at the helm of one of it's bodies.

Doesn't Washington thrive on the inability of other states to ramp up huge arms budgets?

As does the free world.

Before America's eyes, the French and the Germans have turned a fateful corner, beyond which the old automatic alliance with the United States no longer holds. Insults aside, those days are not coming back.

Whatever. Spain, Italy, Britain and Poland, to name a few, demur from the Franco-German conspiracy. The Franco-German axis has been given a wake-up call from the rest of Europe, not the US, and not before time.

IMO it's a relief that America is the world's sole superpower, not France or Germany. That's been tried, and it wasn't pretty.
 
Shane Costello:
The reason that Germany and France put five centuries of war behind them is because the main belligerant, Germany, had been thoroughly beaten in two world wars.
Undoubtedly, this has something to do with it. So what?
Common currency? As if that's working swimmingly! He also fails to point out that the Danes rejected the single currency in a referendum, and that British sentiment towards EMU continues to harden. Not to mention that very serious and deleterious economic effects this ill-judged project is having.
A recent poll (within the last 6 months or so) showed there was now a majority in Denmark for the Euro.
Revolutionary steps? So were communism and the Final Solution.
Relevance?
Willing to give up chunks of sovereignty? Both Ireland and Denmark voted against surrendering sovreignty top the EU,a nd on both occasions the EU (and to their shame National Governments) ran roughshod over the will of the people.
Not sure what happened in Ireland, but in Denmark, whenever a referendum goes against relinquishing additional sovereignty, we just hold new referendums, until the people get it right. ;)
Truly democratic? Opinion polls demonstrated that a consistent and large majority of Germans opposed giving up the D-Mark for the Euro. They were ignored, and the economic crisis Germany faces has been excacerbated by the decision of the German government to ignore the will of the people?
Each country has their own constitutional rules regarding giving up sovereignty. In Germany, referendums are not required.
Protect human rights? One word: Srebernica.
Srebernica is not located within the EU.
The only reason Europe has been able to forge anything is due to the American military preventing the whole continent being absorbed into the Soviet Empire.
The violent history of Europe is one of the main reasons why the EU is a good idea.
Given the serious demographic crisis facing most European countries, it's likely that they will have to become countries of mass immigration if they're to survive.
There is no reason to increase populations. But I agree that something should be done to encourage earlier childbearing.
Yes it is. Communism didn't consent to it's own collapse, after all. Bor are Islamic fundamentalists or brutal, dictatorial regimes amenable to dialogue and reason.
I agree that the European countries should increase military spending considerably. However, the low military spending has nothing to do with the EU.
Srebernica. Saddam's flouting of UN resolutions. Nor did the UN have much involvement in deposing Milosevic.
Again, Srebrenica is not within the EU. It also didn't threaten any NATO countries.

Oh, and Milosovic was deposed by the Serbians because he tried to rig an election.
The US congress is a democratically elected body. The UN has Col. Ghaddafi at the helm of one of it's bodies.
Indeed, and the US has a Christian fundamentalist at its helm.
Whatever. Spain, Italy, Britain and Poland, to name a few, demur from the Franco-German conspiracy. The Franco-German axis has been given a wake-up call from the rest of Europe, not the US, and not before time.
Give me a break. There is a public majority against an Iraq war in all European countries (not sure about Poland, though). So in this case, the National Governments are running roughshod over the will of the people.
IMO it's a relief that America is the world's sole superpower, not France or Germany. That's been tried, and it wasn't pretty.
Are you American or is it just that you haven't had any history lessons?
 
Originally posted by Jedi Knight
It is a newly evolving nation-state system and in history, all new nation-states evolve from, you guessed it, war. This is the first peaceful attempt to unify the continent of Europe. It is also being unified under the objectives of Adolf Hitler, remarkably. Adolf Hitler wanted to make the European continent a socialist nation-state system and that is exactly what the EU is, minus the Nazi party. The EU is on the left.
You are frightening me. How can you compare the EU and the 3rd Reich ????!!!!!!!
:(
BTW you forgot a detail : Hitler wanted to conqueer Europe and to subject it by force. Today's European only want to unite peacefully and democratically. And to the best of my knowledge, "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer !" isn't the EU motto. You make me sick.

why did France almost elect a very far-right candidate to run the country? [...] Why are they becoming very popular?
You visibly don't know anything about France. France (especially the leftist voters!) elected Chirac with 82% voices to run the country. Your "almost" is irrelevant, although far-right result is really very worrying for every respectable French. Moreover there isn't any National Front (= Le Pen's party) member in the French Parliament.
As for Le Pen himself, you should know that he is considered as the devil in France. He HATES Chirac (even more than he hates the leftists!). Chirac has always categorically refused to become allied with him. And after the 1st round results (which stunned everybody), hundreds of thousands of people demonstrated everywhere in France during 2 weeks against the National Front.
For a few years, Le Pen has tried to become a respectable politician by avoiding telling racist talks. Some of his electors are only people who want to protest against the system and against politicians. Of course, racism is a real issue in France, but the American aren't less racist than the French. In the US there are only two big parties, so the American express their dissatisfaction by not voting. By the way, about 30% of the French electors did'nt vote, as far as the 1st round of the presidential elections is concerned.

The key to the NATO alliance is that when a NATO member asks for help the other countries give them that help.
They do it if that help is necesssary and relevant. But NATO didn't declare war!

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Common currency? As if that's working swimmingly! He also fails to point out that the Danes rejected the single currency in a referendum, and that British sentiment towards EMU continues to harden. Not to mention that very serious and deleterious economic effects this ill-judged project is having.
Sorry, Euro is working. Little by little it will increase its importance, nothing is perfect from the beginning. I'll answer the same to your other objections. You're negative and pessimistic, but the EU is not built yet. An you're wrong when you say that the EU isn't democratic.

-- Edited to correct or add some sentences.
 
Posted by DanishDynamite
Srebernica is not located within the EU.

Naturally. Was Srebernica part of Europe?

JK
 
erm pad.........

You appear to be misquoting me...........


or rather saying I said what the next guy up/down said! :(
 
Originally posted by Pad
You are frightening me. How can you compare the EU and the 3rd Reich ????!!!!!!!
:(
BTW you forgot a detail : Hitler wanted to conqueer Europe and to subject it by force. Today's European only want to unite peacefully and democratically. And to the best of my knowledge, "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer !" isn't the EU motto. You make me sick.


I make you sick? lol. How is a unified socialist Europe any different than the visions of Adolf Hitler? It is one in the same. Just because the Europeans went willingly this time doesn't negate the fact that it was Adolf Hitler who first attempted it, and it was radical leftism this time, not a radical rightist like Hitler who pulled it off.

You visibly don't know anything about France. France (especially the leftist voters!) elected Chirac with 82% voices to run the country. Your "almost" is irrelevant, although far-right result is really very worrying for every respectable French. Moreover there isn't any National Front (= Le Pen's party) member in the French Parliament.

Ah, but you are wrong. I am French--my ancestors are French. I am French-Irish, a pretty interesting combination lol. You also failed to mention how Le Pen forced a run-off with Chirac. So what if Chirac won by 82%. How the hell did Le Pen make it that far?!? The French wanted Le Pen. They were desperate for him and desperate to get away from the socialist Chirac. I don't agree with Le Pen's political views, but since socialists only respect "diversity" if it is Marxist-defined, that creates extremist opposition candidates. What that means, in sum, is that the French chose the lesser of two evils in this last election.

As for Le Pen himself, you should know that he is considered as the devil in France. He HATES Chirac (even more than he hates the leftists!). Chirac has always categorically refused to become allied with him. And after the 1st round results (which stunned everybody), hundreds of thousands of people demonstrated everywhere in France during 2 weeks against the National Front.

OK, but that still doesn't tell me why Le Pen made it as far as he did. Le Pen almost became the President of your country and you are trying to make it sound like it was "no big deal". It was a big deal.

For a few years, Le Pen has tried to become a respectable politician by avoiding telling racist talks. Some of his electors are only people who want to protest against the system and against politicians. Of course, racism is a real issue in France, but the American aren't less racist than the French. In the US there are only two big parties, so the American express their dissatisfaction by not voting. By the way, about 30% of the French electors did'nt vote, as far as the 1st round of the presidential elections is concerned.

Yeah well, I know the leftist spin on calling every opponent a "racist" and all that. Name calling is always a predictable trait of leftists. Now why don't you explain what issues that Le Pen stood for and ran with as a candidiate so I can understand why so many French voted for Le Pen?

They do it if that help is necesssary and relevant. But NATO didn't declare war!

No, that is not how the treaty works. The treaty is very specific. If any member of the NATO alliance asks for assistance, they get it. War has nothing to do with it.

Sorry, Euro is working.

No, it is not. If it was working, why did Le Pen almost steal the presidential election of France almost overnight? The "we can do no wrong and we are always right" socialist propaganda has no place in reality here.

Little by little it will increase its importance, nothing is perfect from the beginning. I'll answer the same to your other objections. You're too negative and pessimistic. The EU is not built yet.

Don't confuse my my accurate analysis of the new EU state as a brewing socialist monster as me being "pessimistic". Am I pessimistic because I disagree with taxing citizens 65%? Spain is a socialist country and has been for many decades before the EU was even attempted. What "success" has Spain had with socialism?

I guess it is a new "cool and fashionable" thing for all of you French folks to try out. Let me know how it turns out for you, considering your country now has an economy that has propelled itself lower than the economy of California and there is no end in sight, and your language, culture and everything else that made France a non-Marxist state is vaporizing before your very eyes.

JK
 
Apologies, Reginald ! I've just corrected it. I pasted your name instead of Jedi's... :o :o
 
A brief last reply to Jedi Knight (I know perfectly well I can't make him change his extreme opinion) :

- The French are massively in favour of the European currency, whatever you may say. No matter if you point out Le Pen about everything.
- Presidential election, 1st round : 17% x (100-30) % = 11.9 % of the French voted for Le Pen (by the way, I remember that his result is even slightly less than 17% but I'm not sure). It's threatenig, indeed, but no more than in some other European countries. As for America, I already explained why it was different. 1 elector out of 2 don't vote!!!!
- General election : once more, there is exactly 0.0000 Front National member in the French Parliament. The presidential election is more symbolic, but it's not as important.
- I'm not minimizing anything. I'm not saying Le Pen's last result isn't "a bid deal" at all (I personally demonstrated against Le Pen after the 1st round results and I was ashamed for being French that day...), but I'm saying you're exaggerating. As if America wasn't as racist as Europe!!!! What's the ratio of Black people who are jailed in the US ? What's the ratio of White people (regarding the same crimes) ??
- As for the "run-off" with Chirac, it was due to a lot a factors. For instance, there was 16 candidates and the major part of them were well-known!! Such a situation never happened before. There was a lot of left candidates and a lot of right candidates too. Jean-Marie Le Pen was almost alone, so he got a slightly better result than Jospin.
- why so many French voted for Le Pen? My school English is far too bad for me to explain it in detail. Here are a few significant reasons, however :
1°) The real lack of security. But the insecurity showed in the media was quite exaggerated : there's hardly 1000 murders a year in France and about 15000 in the US (I'm not sure of this last number, but the ratio is far superior anyway).
2°) The dissatisfaction of some as far as the politicians are concerned. It has significantly decreased, however. Nobody expected such a result, so some people voted for Le Pen to protest. But in the 2nd round Le Pen had no chance, although some voters voted again for him.
3°) The French political system which is composed of a lot of parties. If we had only 2 major parties, hardly anybody would have voted for Le Pen, but a lot of people would not have voted at all.
4°) Immigration problems related to violence and insecurity. They do exist but not much was done to solve them. Some citizen wanted to say : "STOP !". But the way they did it is tragic.
5°) Racism. It do exists too.

I think you should come in France (just for a few months). You'll realize that the French aren't as bad as you say. :) Not worse than the other European people. Not worse than the American. Different? Probably, so ?

-- Edited to add this : the help provided by NATO to its members isn't systematic, since it was voted (and rejected by German, France and Belgium)!! IMO you're saying a nonsense.
 
Pad said:
A brief last reply to Jedi Knight (I know perfectly well I can't make him change his extreme opinion) :

- The French are massively in favour of the European currency, whatever you may say. No matter if you point out Le Pen about everything.
- Presidential election, 1st round : 17% x 30 % = 11.9 % of the French voted for Le Pen (by the way, I remember that his result is even slightly less than 17% but I'm not sure). It's threatenig, indeed, but no more than in some other European countries. As for America, I already explained why it was different. 1 elector out of 2 don't vote!!!!
- General election : once more, there is exactly 0.0000 Front National member in the French Parliament. The presidential election is more symbolic, but it's not as important.
- I'm not minimizing anything. I'm not saying Le Pen's last result isn't "a bid deal" at all (I personally demonstrated against Le Pen after the 1st round results and I was ashamed for being French that day...), but I'm saying you're exaggerating. As if America wasn't as racist as Europe!!!! What's the ratio of Black people who are jailed in the US ? What's the ratio of White people (regarding the same crimes) ??
- As for the "run-off" with Chirac, it was due to a lot a factors. For instance, there was 16 candidates and the major part of them were well-known!! Such a situation never happened before. There was a lot of left candidates and a lot of right candidates too. Jean-Marie Le Pen was almost alone, so he got a slightly better result than Jospin.
- why so many French voted for Le Pen? My school English is far too bad for me to explain it in detail. Here are a few significant reasons, however :
1°) The real lack of security. But the insecurity showed in the media was quite exaggerated : there's hardly 1000 murders a year in France and about 15000 in the US (I'm not sure of this last number, but the ratio is far superior anyway).
2°) The dissatisfaction of some as far as the politicians are concerned. It has significantly decreased, however. Nobody expected such a result, so some people voted for Le Pen to protest. But in the 2nd round Le Pen had no chance, although some voters voted again for him.
3°) The French political system which is composed of a lot of parties. If we had only 2 major parties, hardly anybody would have voted for Le Pen, but a lot of people would not have voted at all.
4°) Immigration problems related to violence and insecurity. They do exist but not much was done to solve them. Some citizen wanted to say : "STOP !". But the way they did it is tragic.
5°) Racism. It do exists too.

I think you should come in France (just for a few months). You'll realize that the French aren't as bad as you say. :) Not worse than the other European people. Not worse than the American. Different? Probably, so ?

Thanks for the detailed reply, Pad. You know, I would like to come out to France sometime.

JK
 
Originally posted by DanishDynamite:
Undoubtedly, this has something to do with it. So what?

So what? The article asserted that consensus politics was the main factor behind the past half-century of peace in Europe. I beg to differ.

A recent poll (within the last 6 months or so) showed there was now a majority in Denmark for the Euro.

How much money have you on it?

Relevance?

The article asserted that Europe was to be lauded for takeing revolutionary steps. My point is that revolutionary steps are not inherently prudent or advisable.

Not sure what happened in Ireland, but in Denmark, whenever a referendum goes against relinquishing additional sovereignty, we just hold new referendums, until the people get it right. ;)

Laugh you might, but I believe that this is a serious and retrograde step.

The violent history of Europe is one of the main reasons why the EU is a good idea.

Undoubtedly, but I believe that the scope of the EU has gone well beyond securing peace and prosperity in Europe, and Germany and France now view it as a vehicle for their own interests. I believe that this could lead to disharmony in the future.

There is no reason to increase populations. But I agree that something should be done to encourage earlier childbearing.

Europe is facing acute problems with it's dependency ratios. The high cost of the welfare state is impinging on economic perfromance, especially in Germany, and as the ratio of earners to dependants decreases the situation will worsen. An increase in the birth rate will provide a solution in the long term. In the short to medium term the expectations of Europeans in terms of their welfare entitlements, and the make-up of European society will have to be modified.
 
Originally postd by Danish Dynamite:
Srebernica is not located within the EU.

It's on the EU's doorstep. The impotence of the EU during the Balkan crisis suggests to me that it's aspirations to be a world player will remain just that.


Again, Srebrenica is not within the EU. It also didn't threaten any NATO countries.

Oh, and Milosovic was deposed by the Serbians because he tried to rig an election.

Conflagration in the Balkans could have threatened Europe, especially Greece, a member of the EU.

And don't you think the NATO bombing campaign had an effect, considering that Milosevic had plunged his county into war and had likely commited electoral fraud before, without being overthrown?

Indeed, and the US has a Christian fundamentalist at its helm.

Denmark has an official church, has it not? Paid for by the state?

Give me a break. There is a public majority against an Iraq war in all European countries (not sure about Poland, though). So in this case, the National Governments are running roughshod over the will of the people.

The letter signed by the "Gang of Eight" pledged support for the US in the event of military action being mandated by the UN. I'm unsure as to whether an absolute majority exists opposing this scenario.

Are you American or is it just that you haven't had any history lessons?

No I'm not American, although a lot of my family are.

Maybe my history is a bit rusty. Maybe you can enlighten me as to which of the following haven't invaded Denmark:

a. Napoleonic France
b. Nazi Germany
c. USA

If the past 50 years have seen a repudiation of force of arms in Europe, then how come France fought wars to maintain it's colonial empire in Algeria and France? Why did it bomb "The Rainbow Warrior"?

Originally posted by Pad:
Sorry, Euro is working. Little by little it will increase its importance, nothing is perfect from the beginning. I'll answer the same to your other objections. You're negative and pessimistic, but the EU is not built yet. An you're wrong when you say that the EU isn't democratic.

If the Euro is working why are the French about to repudiate the growth and stability pact? We were promised that EMU would herald an age of unbridled prosperity and economic growth. Why then is Germany, which accounts for a third of the Eurozone economy, facing it's worst economic crisis since the war? Why is French unemployment climbing to 10%? Why didn't Europes economic performace match or surpass that of America's, or even Britain's, over the past decade? How can the European central bank set interest rates suitable for all members of the Eurozone?

Please don't fob me off with the "your a pessimist" line. Better that than an ostrich with it's head in the sand, in any case. I recieved a Catholic education, and in light of that I'll treat anyone asking me to accept things with blind faith alone with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Please tell me how EMU and the EU will increase it's importance in the light of the following.
1. Ageing populations
2. Sclerotic economies
3. The Common Agricultural Policy
4. Unwillingness to face up to these problems. Can it be encouraging that Schroeder swung the German election by banging the drum of pacifism (one of his ministers compared Bush to Hitler), in spite of the crisis Germany faces?

If the EU is democratic then why don't we get to elect our commisioners, the people responsible for framing EU legislation? Why was Ireland the only country to submit the Nice Treaty for popular approval, and why was it necessary to hold the refernedum again 18 months later? And please explain the council of ministers sanctions against Austria a while back.
 
Posted by Shane Costello
If the EU is democratic then why don't we get to elect our commisioners, the people responsible for framing EU legislation?

Very good question Shane, and one I asked myself above. I think that socialism creates ideas that there is no more need for traditonal annoyances like "elections" and "public inquiry". Since socialism seeks to take most corporations and valuable private property and hand it over to the "state", there really is a deterioration of the voting class who has an interest in voting.

Without private property, voting becomes less necessary. The poor know that their needs are going to be addressed either way. They are the always the squeaky wheel. Now the individuals who have private property and find themselves paying 150% more than it is worth in taxes over the lifetime that they own it--they have an interest in voting.

Take Spain for example and it is a good example. Once a flourishing European power, Spain should have been the example of what happens to a European country that embraces socialism. When people pay the majority of their wages in taxes, they naturally have less to spend on manufactured goods. When these same people do not spend money on manufacturing goods, the factories that produce those goods see a decline in market-share and then lay off workers. Workers that are layed off do not buy any manufactured goods, perpetuating a cycle of economic depression.

Now the socialist state will make up for that downward spiral by taking resources from the producers to give to the non-producers. The key is keeping the producers out of politics, but as Le Pen proved in France, eventually the producers become aggravated.

In Germany it is the same story. The socialism that fuels German populations draws its resources from somewhere, and the more the German populations are taxed, the less they can spend. Germany is in for a major economic crisis.

The leadership in Brussels that is non-elected are declared "experts" in their fields of governance--from economic to security issues. They are hardcore socialists and the last thing they want are elections to determine their positions. Recently, they caught a lot of flack for not even writing up a written constitution but they did under pressure. If Europeans are smart they will demand a democratization of the EU to include elections of all major offices. Assistants and other personnel can be drawn from experience pools by the elected--that is not a problem. But once the non-elected bureaucrat gets in office you will never get rid of them and there is no standard of accountability, even if you are told there is.

JK
 
Originally posted by Shane Costello
So what? The article asserted that consensus politics was the main factor behind the past half-century of peace in Europe.
I reply by quoting you, Shane Costello :

The reason that Germany and France put five centuries of war behind them is because the main belligerant, Germany, had been thoroughly beaten in two world wars.
That's indeed one of the reasons why EU started being built and that's a good enough justification. I don't understand your objection. Peace is one of the purposes and no war was declared within the EU since it exists.

Undoubtedly, but I believe that the scope of the EU has gone well beyond securing peace and prosperity in Europe, and Germany and France now view it as a vehicle for their own interests. I believe that this could lead to disharmony in the future.
You're wrong. The EU is a vehicle for Denmark's, Poland's, Italy's, France's, Germany's,... interests. Germany and France are only trying to build the EU by working and suggesting. Then, all the countries decide together. If one day any other state wants to help Germany and France, that's great ! But it will be necessary to spend money and time.

It's on the EU's doorstep. The impotence of the EU during the Balkan crisis suggests to me that it's aspirations to be a world player will remain just that.
That's the precise reason why Germany and France (but they aren't alone!) are trying to build the EU. But you don't understand that the EU building is a progressive process. Your argument (today's failures) only prove the incapacity of the present EU. Nothing more. You may think that nothing will change, even that nothing is changing, and that's why I called you a pessimist. Sorry if it shocked you. But I'm actually wrong because you don't want the EU at all. So you can't be pessimistic! :)
For decades the EU has progressed, despite the economic/political/international crises. That's a matter of will.

If the past 50 years have seen a repudiation of force of arms in Europe, then how come France fought wars to maintain it's colonial empire in Algeria and France?
First, Algeria was located within France. Secondly, at this time (54-62) the EU was borning. As for France's indefensible human right violations during this war, I reply : "Yes, it's tragical. But what about America's ones in Vietnam (or even in Guantanamo...) ? What about Churchill's ones against Ireland independantists?"

Maybe you can enlighten me as to which of the following haven't invaded Denmark:
a. Napoleonic France
b. Nazi Germany
c. USA
Precisely. Germany wasn't democratic and France wasn't anymore. Now both of them are.
By the way Napoleon paradoxically helped European countries to democratize themselves. He was a despot, but he supported freedom of religion, freedom of opinion (but not freedom of press at all!) and he involuntarily triggered rebellion against him and thus against all the tyrants in Europe. The Old Regime almost disappeared.

Why did it bomb "The Rainbow Warrior"?
It was the French secret services who did it. I see you're wasting your breath pointing out the failures of EU, as if it could solve every problem, whereas it is not even build yet! Charles Babbage said : "Propose to any Englishman any principle, or any instrument, however admirable, and you will observe that the whole effort of the English mind is directed to find a difficulty, a defect or an impossibility in it. If you speak to him of a machine for peeling a potato, he will pronounce it impossible: if you peel a potato with it before his eyes, he will declare it useless because it will not slice a pineapple." Now I'm discovering it's maybe true regarding the Irish ;) :)

If the Euro is working why are the French about to repudiate the growth and stability pact?
1°) Nothing to do with the Euro
2°) Didn't repudiate anything. Only tried to make it a bit more flexible.

We were promised that EMU would herald an age of unbridled prosperity and economic growth. Why then is Germany, which accounts for a third of the Eurozone economy, facing it's worst economic crisis since the war? Why is French unemployment climbing to 10%? Why didn't Europes economic performace match or surpass that of America's, or even Britain's, over the past decade? How can the European central bank set interest rates suitable for all members of the Eurozone?
Maybe you believe that we believe that changing a currency implies we will easily surpass everybody? And within 2 ou 3 years????????
As for French unemployment, it's growing but it's not as high as it used to be 5 or 10 years ago.

I recieved a Catholic education, and in light of that I'll treat anyone asking me to accept things with blind faith alone with a healthy dose of skepticism.
I used to believe that accepting things blindly still was a Catholic principle? ;) ;) ;)

If the EU is democratic then why don't we get to elect our commisioners, the people responsible for framing EU legislation?
1°) The commisioners are apointed by the ministers.
2°) They apply the decisions taken by the ministers. But that's all.
3°) You still think that it's not democratic enough ? I agree. But that's a temporary situtation. In the future the European parliament will be more important, and it's elected.


Pad
 
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's recent scathing remark that it was only "Old Europe" that opposed the U.S. plan to attack Iraq produced a sharp reaction from France and Germany, the countries he obviously had in mind. But who really represents the "old" thinking here? The better case might be made that it is America that stands for "old" values, and that France and Germany represent "New Europe" - or even "the coming world."
[/B]


And Canada. They were opposed from the start, but the US acts as if it never happened.
 

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