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What would "god" need to do in order to prove that she really existed?

Chanakya said:
◊◊◊◊. NO!

...Not to make this acrimonious, like I said. Nothing personal. But I stand by everything I've said. You're wrong on this. And what's more, you're being disingenuous about this as well. Just say plainly that you disagree, if in fact you don't agree. We can live with that disagreement, and engage fully amicably nevertheless, no reason why not.

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eta: Oh, those diamond thingies. For a moment I was wondering where those came from. Those, instead of the asterisks from earlier on.
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Yes, we can continue acrimoniously but continuing on the basis that I'm disingenuous will not work.


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Chanakya said:
That, again, is fair enough. Completely unambiguous. Couldn't have asked for more.

Happy to shake on that, if you're willing.
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I'll be happy to shake, but if you think I'm disingenuous, then that's far as I go.





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Edit for rule 10, and rule 11. Please raise issues regarding forum management in FMF, and do not partially mask 'forbidden' words.
 
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AmyStrange said:
I'll be happy to shake, but if you think I'm disingenuous, then that's far as I go.


Edited by zooterkin: 
<snip>
Edit for rule 10, and rule 11. Please raise issues regarding forum management in FMF, and do not partially mask 'forbidden' words.



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I believe you had been disingenuous, and had been trying to spin this away; but have subsequently self-corrected, and are no longer disingenuous. That, heh, is as far as I go. (Which last is no concession. Fair's fair, and I'd gone that distance already, in my last post.)


eta: Haha, we're doing the ISF thing of carrying on with disagreeing despite having already agreed. You have clearly retracted your earlier position, and clearly admitted to being wrong about selectively seizing on the one and leaving out the other. Which was ...big of you, handsome of you. No more need be said, really.
 
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AmyStrange said:
You'll probably be surprised to know that I agree with both of you.

The god I would create (for a story or a novel) wouldn't let anyone down and would save everyone and not just the thousand odd innocents you refer to.

How would she do it? I haven't ironed that part out yet, but if you've got any ideas, I'll be glad to listen.

I never intended this thread to become a serious philosophical discussion like it sometimes has, and that doesn't bother me, nor should it derail it or be outside the bounds of discussion either.
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If you'd opened with the fact that you are worldbuilding, I think the discussion would have gone quite differently.
 
AmyStrange said:
ETA: I've been lately floating a theory around in my head that the god you believed in (while alive) would also be the god you got after you died, unless you didn't believe in her (or him or it), and then you'd have no afterlife. I'm trying to come up with a story that would go along with that as the premise.
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That's how it seems to work in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books.
 
Of course, there is an entire class of people who see the existence of God proven by their own success, i.e. everyone who thinks they are working under a Divine Mandate.
This includes everyone involved in haphazard projects of building a nation from scratch with the crutch of Manifest Destiny - examples are the US and Israel.
On a smaller scale, it applies to everyone who conveniently discovered the Prosperity Gospel.

But I think it sooner or later hits everyone who suffers from too rapid success and a lingering Imposter Syndrome that has to be overcome.
 
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Not sure about this idea that this god would strike against religious extremists. After all, the whole point of being an extremist is a dogmatic and fully-applied adherence to the word of god. If that god did actually appear, then I would have thought it a bit unfair to immediately prove their divinity by punishing those people who, more than any others, had lived their lives as much in accordance with the espressed wishes and guidelines that god had given us.
I think it more likely that god would reward the extremists and punish the "sinners". That's basically all this celestial monster does anyway.
 
For the record my reaction was about using OP's unfortunate wording in a fun/spec thread as a jumping on point for a totally different and deeply heavy subject, and not about my opinions on anyone in Gaza.

We have threads for that already (where anyone can get yelled at by at least three other points of view).
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Not sure about this idea that this god would strike against religious extremists. After all, the whole point of being an extremist is a dogmatic and fully-applied adherence to the word of god. If that god did actually appear, then I would have thought it a bit unfair to immediately prove their divinity by punishing those people who, more than any others, had lived their lives as much in accordance with the espressed wishes and guidelines that god had given us.
I think it more likely that god would reward the extremists and punish the "sinners". That's basically all this celestial monster does anyway.
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That is predicated on the idea that the god of the extremists is the real one, isn't it? Of course one of the paradoxes of theism is that we call God good and benevolent and loving, and then use our belief in him to justify intolerance and murder, because we claim to know what he wants, and though we keep saying he's the king of the universe and all powerful, we figure he can't get the job done without us. I would imagine that if there were a real god such a god would be able to figure out how to make his will known without needing fanatics to scour the earth on his behalf, and would figure out how to let them know. Maybe a more coherent scripture, or something? A new set of golden plates? An interrupted broadcast? I don't know just how it could be done, but a god that's no smarter than I am is a pretty poor specimen.
 
AmyStrange said:
Let's say she came down to earth to set things straight, now what exactly would she need to do to prove (to you personally) that she was the one and only?
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The one and only? That'd actually be impossible to prove, I think, proving a negative and all that.
If I wasn't meant to take it that literally, I think working inexplicable miracles would be enough to convince people she's an actual god. Like, teleport putin to the Hague and levitate all russian forces out of Ukraine. Magically spawn food for every starving person in the world. Cure all the world's cases of (insert disease here).

Then again, I could also say that her just appearing (unless she was in human form for some reason) would by definition be evidence enough. How do you prove black swans exist? Produce a black swan.
 
Safe-Keeper said:
The one and only? That'd actually be impossible to prove, I think, proving a negative and all that.
If I wasn't meant to take it that literally, I think working inexplicable miracles would be enough to convince people she's an actual god. Like, teleport putin to the Hague and levitate all russian forces out of Ukraine. Magically spawn food for every starving person in the world. Cure all the world's cases of (insert disease here).

Then again, I could also say that her just appearing (unless she was in human form for some reason) would by definition be evidence enough. How do you prove black swans exist? Produce a black swan.
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Right, but the hitch is: how do you know that makes them God, and that you're not simply being fooled?

Unless you're in Ukraine, and see the Russkies vanish, wouldn't it occur to you that the online evidence is being faked? How would you know the hungry people were fed? Inspect each yourself, or trust a laptop screen?

That's where I'm landing with the "proof" angle. Anything truly convincing dropped down will make me doubt my own sanity, or make me think I was drugged or being deep faked.
 
bruto said:
That is predicated on the idea that the god of the extremists is the real one, isn't it?
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Yes, because the extremism is rooted in a literal belief in what is written in their "holy" books. More moderate followers of a faith are forced to ignore or directly go against the injunctions of their scriptures.
bruto said:
Of course one of the paradoxes of theism is that we call God good and benevolent and loving, and then use our belief in him to justify intolerance and murder, because we claim to know what he wants, and though we keep saying he's the king of the universe and all powerful, we figure he can't get the job done without us. I would imagine that if there were a real god such a god would be able to figure out how to make his will known without needing fanatics to scour the earth on his behalf, and would figure out how to let them know. Maybe a more coherent scripture, or something? A new set of golden plates? An interrupted broadcast? I don't know just how it could be done, but a god that's no smarter than I am is a pretty poor specimen.
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Well, if you've read the Qur'an, you will know that having fanatics scouring the earth for unbelievers is exactly what Allah wants. The god of the Old Testament is regularly prone to fits of murderous rage, and expressly advocated genocide, among many other atrocities. Intolerance is the cornerstone of Islam, and any literal reading of the Bible will quickly furnish quotes to excuse intolerance and murder as well.
I do agree with the rest of this paragraph, though. If this god is all-powerful, how come they've done such a piss-poor job of communicating with humanity? We do a far better job of communicating our views on this little forum than this god has done- and god's had thousands of years to get it right. And we aren't omnipotent and omniscient. (Well, apart from Jay Utah, of course, who probably is!)
Perhaps, to return to the OP's question, the first thing this supposed returning god should do is explain why they were so crap at explaining what they wanted us to do, and why they were apparently powerless or indifferent to the carnage that has resulted in centuries of internecine fighting, and all-round religion-based unpleasantness. Plus a massive apology, and a promise not to be so crap in the future.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Yes, because the extremism is rooted in a literal belief in what is written in their "holy" books. More moderate followers of a faith are forced to ignore or directly go against the injunctions of their scriptures.

Well, if you've read the Qur'an, you will know that having fanatics scouring the earth for unbelievers is exactly what Allah wants. The god of the Old Testament is regularly prone to fits of murderous rage, and expressly advocated genocide, among many other atrocities. Intolerance is the cornerstone of Islam, and any literal reading of the Bible will quickly furnish quotes to excuse intolerance and murder as well.
I do agree with the rest of this paragraph, though. If this god is all-powerful, how come they've done such a piss-poor job of communicating with humanity? We do a far better job of communicating our views on this little forum than this god has done- and god's had thousands of years to get it right. And we aren't omnipotent and omniscient. (Well, apart from Jay Utah, of course, who probably is!)
Perhaps, to return to the OP's question, the first thing this supposed returning god should do is explain why they were so crap at explaining what they wanted us to do, and why they were apparently powerless or indifferent to the carnage that has resulted in centuries of internecine fighting, and all-round religion-based unpleasantness. Plus a massive apology, and a promise not to be so crap in the future.
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Religious "logic", as I know it, is such that your whole criticism can be circumvent by it by one of many (religious) words. The summary is you can't question God but he'll question you, you don't know but he knows, you're not God but he is...
There're so many fuses for the religionist that'll protect their faith. If arguments seem to make a religious person irreligious, I think it's only because of a cultural conversion already being furthered within. That was my experience.
 
winter salt said:
Religious "logic", as I know it, is such that your whole criticism can be circumvent by it by one of many (religious) words. The summary is you can't question God but he'll question you, you don't know but he knows, you're not God but he is...
There're so many fuses for the religionist that'll protect their faith. If arguments seem to make a religious person irreligious, I think it's only because of a cultural conversion already being furthered within. That was my experience.
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Indeed, which is why I figure if we actually believe in such a god, we have to accept that whatever is being done is what he wants done. It's a game and the rules are his. I recall one take on it from an old Kurt Vonnegut book, that we're God's electric train set. We can play around with ideas of how a god might go about doing this or that, and what we would like our god to do, but in the end, whether there is one or isn't one, the result is the same: it's not going to happen.
 
I don't care if God exists, it is a POS.

What's the epologue to this argument? Oh boy, God exists and will throw me into a real Hell if I don't do time and effort-wasting stuff it mandates, that it could do with infinite ease?

Is doing so for fear of Hell a noble action? Is making the threat in any way the sign of a good creature?

Even in that case I will not kneel. Wave to me at the end times as I am tossed off the edge and plummet away, you shallow sycophant.
 
Well, see, that's the thing though. I don't expect that if an actual super powerful, communicative, universe creating thing showed up, it would have anything to do with any of our religions. If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that we made all of those up ourselves from whole cloth.

I'm sure one of the things that would happen if a real god showed up, would be a lot of people wanting answers about why it did or said this or that or promised the other, and it would have to explain yeah no I'm just the one that made the universe. I'm really sorry to have to tell you this but I never told you to do any religion, that's your thing.

So funny enough in context of the OP, I don't know how this kind of god could prove itself to, for example, Abrahamic types. I feel like short of actual brain altering, most of those guys would still be looking for THEIR God and they would not trust this one. I guess it could lie and act the part, but it probably wouldn't want to for the same reasons it remains undetectable to us now.

To use that ant metaphor I've seen rolling around to explain why God doesn't warn people about stuff, imagine we figured out how to talk to ants, and they ask stuff like 'why do you not reward the prayers of zsxsxzzx, why despite our cries do you let anzuzz break open our nest and steal our young, why-' and you're like hey I'm not that guy. I haven't been listening because I'm not that guy. I don't know anything about the guy you've been praying to. I haven't seen him.
 
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The thing that is useful to keep in mind is that for literally thousands of years, extremely smart people have be musing about God and what he is like. Christian Philosophers have said everything that could be said, as have the best and brightest from other religions - and none have come with an answer that would satisfy most people most of the time.
It is extremely unlikely that anyone else will come up with an argument that hasn't already been debunked for hundreds of years.
 
arthwollipot said:
Except God themself, if they exist. Which is why I say that God already knows exactly how to prove to me that they exist, and is free to do so at any time.
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Right, and an efficient god with a sense of humor would know he/she/it/they needs to prove it to the atheists. The believers don't need any proof and should be rewarded for their good faith. They, instead, get to say "told you so" over and over, and won't your face be red? And he/she/it/they can play with you like a puppet on a stick till the day you die, since for all you know now, a snap of the figurative fingers will send you straight to Hell. What fun!
 
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