What Really is Holding Back Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles

[IXP]

Who needs a battery? Use a large capacitor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page2/

For example, the company's system claims a specific energy of about 280 watt hours per kilogram, compared with around 120 watt hours per kilogram for lithium-ion and 32 watt hours per kilogram for lead-acid gel batteries. This leads to new possibilities for electric vehicles and other applications, including for the military.

As far as I can tell, this is not a scam, they are seriously working on this technology. If they succeed, the energy storage is far lighter and less costly than any current battery. The 5KWH example would weigh only 40 pounds. They are claiming the possiblity of a small car that can go 500 miles on a single charge at a cost of about $9. I would love it if they could achieve half of this at twice the cost.

IXP

 

[Freethinker]

What DrKitten said.
It's the battery technology that holding the electric car back. If you could developed a power cell that is capable of delivering the same range and speed of a gas engine and that doesn't cost the GNP of a small country, you'd be Bill Gates rich.

Batteries are my area of expertise. It wouldn't take but about a 10% improvement in capacity or power-to-weight to make you Bill Gates rich. Batteries and their chargers typically waste as heat about 50% of the power delivered to them. They are horribly inefficient.

There are some nanotech projects in the works to improve the electrolyte to plate interface, which might be a boon to an electric vehicle.

Using things like average commute distance is not going to lead to much understanding of the issues. I drive 9 miles to work, so theoretically a 20 mile range would cover me. But what if the school calls and one of my kids is sick? It's 23 miles from work. I'd have to drive home and get my other car before I went and got them. What if I want to go out to lunch while I'm at work? Nearest place is 6 miles. Stop by Walmart? 22 miles. Go to one of the kids ballgames after work? 16 to 75 miles. As they exist now, electric vehicles are impractical for the vast majority of people.

Financially, I'd have to own and insure a second vehicle just to make sure I could get where I needed to go.

Safety-wise, electric vehicles are a disaster. Small and packed with hazardous chemicals.

 

[drkitten]

Who needs a battery? Use a large capacitor:

As far as I can tell, this is not a scam, they are seriously working on this technology. If they succeed, the energy storage is far lighter and less costly than any current battery.

Yeah, this definitely falls under the heading of Would Be Nice If.

Unfortunately, I'm suspicious. I've seen too many WBNI ideas that turn out not to work.

 

[robinson]

For those who want a plug in hybrid, nothing but money is holding you back. They have been around since for about 90 years. The kit for turning a modern Prius into a plug in is around 3 grand. You get around 100 mpg if you drive only a short distance each day, which 80% of people do.

Toyota claims to be working on actually selling a Prius you can plug in, soon. Really, they promise.

Then there is Volvo,

The Volvo ReCharge Concept is best suited to car drivers who cover moderate distances every day. For example, a commuter who has less than 100 kilometres (62 miles) to drive between home and workplace can cover the entire round trip on electric power alone and the equivalent daily fuel economy will be zero litres per 100 km.

Even drivers who cover more than the battery-only range will benefit from the ReCharge Concept. For a 150 km (93 mile) drive starting with a full charge, the car will require less than 2.8 litres of fuel, giving the car an effective fuel economy of 1.9 l/100km (124 mpg).

"The only requirement is that the car owner has access to electrical outlets at convenient places, such as at home or at the workplace. A full recharge takes 3 hours. However, even a one-hour quick charge should provide enough charge to drive about 50 kilometres," says Magnus Jonsson.

http://www.autospectator.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10883

As a skeptic, who doubts stuff that has no evidence to back it up, I don't believe any of the claims from car makers about how hard it is to do, that people don't want electric cars, or any of the other BS that is marketed to the mass media mind on a regular basis. Because none of it has any evidence to back it up.

The electric cars made in the 1920s still work just fine. The only thing you really have to service on an electric car, (not a hybrid, the original electric plug in car), is replace the batteries, or replace to electric motor.

 

[Loss Leader]

Obviously, for anyone into the subject the documentary Who Killed The Electric Car is required viewing.

 

[balrog666]

Who needs a battery? Use a large capacitor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page2/


As far as I can tell, this is not a scam, they are seriously working on this technology. If they succeed, the energy storage is far lighter and less costly than any current battery. The 5KWH example would weigh only 40 pounds. They are claiming the possiblity of a small car that can go 500 miles on a single charge at a cost of about $9. I would love it if they could achieve half of this at twice the cost.

IXP

With respect to running a small car for 500 miles, charging the capacitor in 5 minutes, and it costing $9, it is all a scam.

However, there are many uses for ultra-capacitors, so pursuing the technology is definitely a good idea and may pay off for the company some day.

In any case, this idea is at least 50 years old.

 

[Ziggurat]

"For example, a commuter who has less than 100 kilometres (62 miles) to drive between home and workplace can cover the entire round trip on electric power alone and the equivalent daily fuel economy will be zero litres per 100 km."
http://www.autospectator.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10883

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. If you're working off the electric grid alone, the relevant metric isn't the amount of gasoline you use, it's the amount (and cost) of energy. And that will never be zero.

As a skeptic, who doubts stuff that has no evidence to back it up, I don't believe any of the claims from car makers about how hard it is to do, that people don't want electric cars, or any of the other BS that is marketed to the mass media mind on a regular basis. Because none of it has any evidence to back it up.

Quite wrong. People want electric cars, but they want electric cars which car makers are not capable of making, or at prices that are not possible (including any benefits from large-scale production). GM sunk billions into its electric vehicle program because it hoped to turn a profit. It didn't work, and not for lack of effort. While a few people loved their electric cars, most consumers wouldn't go near that thing, and for good reason. Electric cars do not offer anywhere close to the functionality that gas-powered cars can, for the very simple reason that energy storage capacities on batteries just aren't good enough. Solve that problem, and consumers AND car manufacturers will flock to electrics like flies on dung. Car manufacturers will scramble to make them because they'll get slaughtered in the market if they don't. But it will not happen unless that problem gets solved. And right now, the most promising avenue for solving it is fuel cells. Batteries (including Lithium ion batteries) just aren't good enough, and they aren't getting significantly better.

The electric cars made in the 1920s still work just fine.

Depends what you mean by "fine". Can they handle getting stuck in LA traffic for an hour with the air conditioner on in 100 degree weather? No, they can't. That's not fine, and consumers won't buy a car that can't do that when they can get one for cheaper which can. Even new electrics have problems in those sorts of situations. It doesn't matter if the car is good enough for most commutes either. People want to do more than just commute, and most people don't have enough money to buy spare cars for different uses.

 

[Just thinking]

What Really is Holding Back Plug-In Hybrid Electric?

Physics...

Quite true .... not to mention the unexpected detour (of extra miles) or traffic jam in the dead of winter. That extra energy stored in your gas tank just might come in handy.

Plus the fact that batteries are not an energy source (in and of themselves), they are an energy storage device. They must get their energy from somewhere, and most of the world cannot get that energy quickly enough from renewable sources, such as hydrodynamic.

 

[Just thinking]

... Depends what you mean by "fine". Can they handle getting stuck in LA traffic for an hour with the air conditioner on in 100 degree weather? No, they can't. That's not fine, and consumers won't buy a car that can't do that when they can get one for cheaper which can. Even new electrics have problems in those sorts of situations. It doesn't matter if the car is good enough for most commutes either. People want to do more than just commute, ...

Electric cars do not offer anywhere close to the functionality that gas-powered cars can, for the very simple reason that energy storage capacities on batteries just aren't good enough.

Wow, Zig ... we both thought of the same problems at the same time!

Cosmic !!!

 

[IXP]

With respect to running a small car for 500 miles, charging the capacitor in 5 minutes, and it costing $9, it is all a scam.

However, there are many uses for ultra-capacitors, so pursuing the technology is definitely a good idea and may pay off for the company some day.

In any case, this idea is at least 50 years old.

Agreed. I am not holding my breath! But I do think it is possible that they do have something. As energy storage for a hybrid, for instance, it could easily be more cost effective than batteries even at the same storage density and initial cost since they would likely last longer.

IXP

 

[Just thinking]

Who needs a battery? Use a large capacitor:

As far as I can tell, this is not a scam, they are seriously working on this technology. If they succeed, the energy storage is far lighter and less costly than any current battery. The 5KWH example would weigh only 40 pounds. They are claiming the possiblity of a small car that can go 500 miles on a single charge at a cost of about $9. I would love it if they could achieve half of this at twice the cost.

I don't think so ... but I've been wrong before.

The formula for energy stored in a cpacitor is 0.5(CV²), where C is capacitance and V is volatge across the plates. Do you know where the 0.5 comes from? It comes out of the fact that as a capacitor discharges its plate voltage drops --- eventually to 0 volts. So the energy comes out of averaging the capacitor's energy output, from Vmax to Vo. Since you're going to want the car's volatge to remain stable at around 12 volts (more like 13), you're going to need either a huge capacitor at low voltage (around 100V) with modest voltage regulation, or a smaller one with high voltage (over 1000V) and better regulation. Since the article also claims you can't charge it at home (currently), I'm thinking this is a high voltage unit.

You want that?

 

[geni]

10 miles can be cycled in under an hour whithout too much difficulty. Why would you need a car over that distance?

 

[drkitten]

10 miles can be cycled in under an hour whithout too much difficulty. Why would you need a car over that distance?

Pick any or all of the following

• The terrain is too difficult/dangerous/etc.
• The weather is too uncooperative
• You have too much cargo to carry
• I'm not in as good shape as you think I am
• I need to maintain a professional demeanor at work that is incompatible with an hour of exertion beforehand (and there aren't showers at work)
• et cetera

 

[patnray]

Other problems with battery powered cars: driving at night (lights), heat/air conditioning, radio and other electronics.... All reduce the range significantly.

Electric moters are very efficient, but we haven't yet found an efficient energy source to power them.

Batteries don't have the energy capacity, charge too slowly, and charge with low efficiency.

Capacitors have problems with leakage over time as well as the voltage drop already mentioned, but they are useful for storing energy from regenerative braking (batteries can not absorb the energy fast enough).

Fuel cells are too expensive and (IIRC) require hydrogen. If I were to guess, I'd bet on a breakthrough in fuel cells before a breakthrough in battery technology.

Flywheels can store a lot of energy and be "charged" quickly, but have problems from frictional losses, gyroscopic effects, and safety concerns about all that kinetic energy being released suddenly in an accident.

 

[Just thinking]

Let's face it ... for now carrying around some liquid fossil fuel in a relatively small storage tank is still giving us the biggest all-around bang for our buck.

 

[The_Animus]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92169

This thread lists and talks about an article or two which talks about green cars and their recent history.

 

[TjW]

<snippage by TjW>
As a skeptic, who doubts stuff that has no evidence to back it up, I don't believe any of the claims from car makers about how hard it is to do, that people don't want electric cars, or any of the other BS that is marketed to the mass media mind on a regular basis. Because none of it has any evidence to back it up.

The electric cars made in the 1920s still work just fine. The only thing you really have to service on an electric car, (not a hybrid, the original electric plug in car), is replace the batteries, or replace to electric motor.

Since you think it's easy to do at a price a vast market will pay, why aren't you doing it?
Yep, it's sad to say, but electric cars haven't changed much since they were first invented.

 

[technoextreme]

The electric cars made in the 1920s still work just fine. The only thing you really have to service on an electric car, (not a hybrid, the original electric plug in car), is replace the batteries, or replace to electric motor.

Still work fine? There are two scenarios that are true. Either they don't work fine or they blow through energy faster than most cars. The 1920's predate the transistor.

Since you think it's easy to do at a price a vast market will pay, why aren't you doing it?
Yep, it's sad to say, but electric cars haven't changed much since they were first invented.

That's not true. I know for a fact that the Prius is using technology that is only twenty years old. Regenerative braking is new too. It used to be that very large resistors were used to dissipate energy. Actually reading the wikipedia article reminds me about how many technologies are needed. What about rectifiers. You can't build an electric car without those. Back then you used to be able to get Direct Current for your house. Once AC won out electric cars were impossible to use until the bridge rectifier.

Batteries and their chargers typically waste as heat about 50% of the power delivered to them. They are horribly inefficient.

That can't be right. Your right that the chargers are a major problem but I honestly don't think it has to do with wasting 50% of their heat as energy.

 

[geni]

Pick any or all of the following

• The terrain is too difficult/dangerous/etc.
• The weather is too uncooperative

• 
  
  Okey we will assume that you are not living in alaska.
  
  

  [*]You have too much cargo to carry

  
  21st century. Memory sticks don't take up much space.
  
  

  [*]I'm not in as good shape as you think I am

  
  Cycle 20 miles every day and you soon will be.
  
  

  [*]I need to maintain a professional demeanor at work that is incompatible with an hour of exertion beforehand (and there aren't showers at work)

  
  So encourage you boss to take up cycling.

 

[robinson]

I'm guessing my link to the new Volvo was just ignored.
http://www.autospectator.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10883

It sounds like the very car that Grepke built in 1975. (It got 100 mpg, and went like a bat out of hell). It was featured on the cover of Popular Mechanics.

Sept. 11, 2007 -- Volvo Cars is introducing the Volvo ReCharge Concept, a plug-in hybrid with individual electric wheel motors and batteries that can be recharged via a regular electrical outlet for maximum environmental benefit.

Recharging allows the car to be driven about 100 kilometres on battery power alone before the car's four-cylinder Flexifuel engine is needed to power the car and recharge the battery.

Volvo ReCharge Concept makes its debut in a specially designed Volvo C30 at the Frankfurt Motor Show.

...
In principle, the Volvo ReCharge Concept is a battery electric car with an efficient generator, an Auxiliary Power Unit (APU), that steps in when battery charge becomes insufficient for adequate driving performance.

The APU is designed to distribute electrical power to the individual motors at each wheel. Since the combustion engine only powers the APU, it can operate in an optimal fashion, both for regulated emissions and CO2.

The APU is sufficiently powerful to supply an entire villa with electricity. For example it could with minor modifications in principle give the car owner an electricity generator right at his front door in the event of a power failure.

I love this part, The APU is sufficiently powerful to supply an entire villa with electricity.

So you plug it in to recharge off of cheap electricity, (really cheap if you are living in France), if you don't drive more than 100K you don't need to buy gas, and if the power goes out, you run your house off of your car.

I can see Oil Executives pulling out their hair, (if they have any), because even the most die hard scoffer can see what this would lead to.

You drive in town without gas, (or pollution), you drive long distances using gas, and in case of power failure, you use your car as a power plant. You have great gas mileage, heat, AC, power, long distance capability, and an emergency generator.

This was possible in 1975, actually, it was done in 1975. Is it any wonder the gas and oil companies didn't jump on that bandwagon?

What really is holding back a plug-in hybrid car? It certainly isn't technology.