• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

What prevents macro-evolution?

Then maybe strange attractors aren't irrelevant.
Does Angela Jolie count? When I look at her, I feel a great attractive force, but then find myself repulsed when I read about the weird things she's into.
When an evolutionary trajectory gets near certain preferred trajectories, it snaps to the preferred trajectory?
On a serious note, this is close to correct. Mathematically, there are actually three main types of selection, each of which yields different end results. When plotted as phase planes, one of these types looks similar to what you suggest, except that I can't call it "snapping to" so much as spiralling toward or away from key points.
 
Hammegk, there is no correct sequence of events. There is only a sequence of events that happens to have taken place. If you had gone back to the beginning and predicted that humans would evolve and then come back to find humans, then the probability would have been truly infinitesimally small. As it is, the argument from probability is worthless.

Yes, WRT actual events, probability is 1. ID suggests the 'probability' of homo sap, even at abiogenesis, was much higher than 'infinitesmally small', and perhaps as pre-ordained by the laws of physics & chemistry as the universe was, and is, sub-atomically and cosmologically.


BillHoyt said:
On a serious note, this is close to correct. Mathematically, there are actually three main types of selection, each of which yields different end results. When plotted as phase planes, one of these types looks similar to what you suggest, except that I can't call it "snapping to" so much as spiralling toward or away from key points.
Is the spiralling effect, rather than 'snapping to' experimentally confirmed, or is it hypothetical?

At microbiology level BronzeDog has stated elsewhere that the rate of mutation is independent of environmental stresses. You iirc had the same opinion; how well justified by actual data is this? We iirc did agree that at minimum preferred 'break-points' where mutation most likely occur do exist.
 
At microbiology level BronzeDog has stated elsewhere that the rate of mutation is independent of environmental stresses. You iirc had the same opinion; how well justified by actual data is this? We iirc did agree that at minimum preferred 'break-points' where mutation most likely occur do exist.
I'm afraid BD is both right and wrong. In higher animals, we've noted no stress response. (Except in immune systems, where the production of monoclonal antibodies in response to disease heavily depends on hyper-mutation regions in antibodies. This, however, is somatic mutation.) In microbes and plants, we have extensive evidence of both mutation suppression and mutation amplification in response to environmental stressors.
 
Okay, that's a bit more knowledge for me, Bill. I was mostly interested in deflating hammy's straw man when I type the post he mentioned. My understanding of evolution doesn't require that environmental stress increase mutation rates, but if it can (at least in some life forms), that makes the process so much easier.
 
Okay, that's a bit more knowledge for me, Bill. I was mostly interested in deflating hammy's straw man when I type the post he mentioned. My understanding of evolution doesn't require that environmental stress increase mutation rates, but if it can (at least in some life forms), that makes the process so much easier.
Don't get me wrong, BD. Evolution does not require any such mechanisms. It can get along fine without them. Specific groups of organisms have such mechanisms because they get along better with them. BTW. some of what I wrote about is fairly recent material; as recent as late 2004.
 
Is the spiralling effect, rather than 'snapping to' experimentally confirmed, or is it hypothetical?
BillHoyt in particular, would you address my question?

By hypothetical, is the demonstration of the effect verified in current microbiology, or is the implication drawn from the fossil record?
 
BillHoyt in particular, would you address my question?

By hypothetical, is the demonstration of the effect verified in current microbiology, or is the implication drawn from the fossil record?
It is a mathematical fact. It is simply the expression or mapping of systems theory into the biological realm.
 
Thanks Bill, I know it's a math fact. Rephrasing, does the math more nearly map to results in micro-bio lab, or to results gleaned from the fossil record?
 
Thanks Bill, I know it's a math fact. Rephrasing, does the math more nearly map to results in micro-bio lab, or to results gleaned from the fossil record?
If you know it's a math fact, then you'd know the answer. So something is amiss.
 
I admitted that. Do you have an actual answer? Microbiology? Fossil record? None of the above?

You tossed the idea out in the first place. Why not help others to get your point?
 
I admitted that. Do you have an actual answer? Microbiology? Fossil record? None of the above?

You tossed the idea out in the first place. Why not help others to get your point?
It is a math fact. It has been verified in the lab, and has been shown in the field. You can do it yourself by breeding flowers or dogs or cows. Farmers have been doing these things for centuries.

Given that a) fossils are rare and b) fossils rarely contain DNA, what do you think the answer to this part of your question is?

More...
 
Last edited:
It is a math fact. It has been verified in the lab, and has been shown in the field. You can do it yourself by breeding flowers or dogs or cows. Farmers have been doing these things for centuries.

Given that a) fossils are rare and b) fossils rarely contain DNA, what do you think the answer to this part of your question is?

More...
^That is an excellent link!
 

Back
Top Bottom