What Penn and Teller Do

CerebralWrestler said:
I wonder what was up with the episode with hair. Were they running out of ideas or needed an episode filler?

I don't trust P&T 100%, they actually make me skeptical about skepticism sometimes :D.

Agreed. That episode was like...yeh ok. What was the bullsh11 part? Next.

That episode on people assuming there's bacteria on toilet seats was also like wtf. I'd never sit on a public toilet seat with bare-butt even knowing there's "scant" levels of bacteria on it.

And the recent "banned" episode about religious icons...were they missing a part? They started introducing this gag they pulled at a shopping center, and how people would react to their gag, but they ended up not showing it at all.

Anyone know why it was banned anyway?
 
I am also one of those whom P&T introduced to Randi. And they did it simply by gushing over Randi in every one of their 3 books!

Just about the only "I call BS on your BS!" moment I felt they had was in their PETA episode. They had this right-wing radio pundit on saying something like "For someone to have an idea that's so dumb, they must have gone to college. Something that stupid is only attributible to higher education." I think that was a needlessly petty and typically neocon attack on intellectualism and education, and considering Teller's background especially, I don't think they needed that kind of nonsense.

Other than that, lots of fun and some good points to be made, as long as they don't go overboard with the Catopublican attitude.
 
PETA is pretty mental, though. I was weary of PETA even before I saw the Penn & Teller episode. I mean they confuse their moral ideas with helping animals. To me thats bull$hit's calling card.
 
Clavis said:
Other than that, lots of fun and some good points to be made, as long as they don't go overboard with the Catopublican attitude.

I'll flip if they say "because it's in the Constitution!" one more time. That's no better an argument than "because it's in the Bible!".

But I've already aired that beef in Politics.
 
I read some of Cato's (and TechCentralStation's) articles because they're interesting and quite informative. But they're quite variable and some ideas are so whacked out that I just get angry.

What do Penn and Teller do? Entertain us by playing with our preconceived notions about how the world works and showing us the limitations of observation. They have to be eccentric in order to be entertaining - its part of the act.
 
I agree on one level, but I don't think they are doing what they are doing now because it's "part of the act". I have no doubt they believe (at least a lot of) what they put onto their show.
 
I haven't seen any BS episodes. I looked for some reviews on this series and found this one on Amazon. Does anyone here agree with this review?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Penn and Teller's Bullshi*t is a much-needed voice of reason in the midst of the alarmist, emotionally charged know-nothings they spend their time debunking in this DVD series. What's included here is a 3-disc set that contains the entire first season (10 episodes) as well as some bonus features, most notably a bonus episode (about ghosts).

Initially, I caught Bullshi*t on Showtime and fell instantly in love with it. At last, here was a series dedicated to crushing the myths that draw in millions of non-thinking individuals. There was something almost vindicating about seeing them body-slam sensationalist after sensationalist with their rhetoric, even providing thinking America with some ammunition to battle our more, well...emotion-driven friends. I had only seen three or four installments on Showtime before buying the DVD and eagerly gobbling up all ten episodes.

Now that I've had some time with the series and have seen all the shows multiple times, something interesting has happened. The last episode I watched really got to me - an episode on second-hand smoke. For once, I thoroughly disagreed with Penn and Teller. The idiots that I normally found myself scoffing at - well, this time it was the hosts of the show. What I saw in that episode was Penn and Teller from the other side of the river. I saw them taking a very specific facet of an argument, thus pushing reams of data aside, and exploit it using arguments from the constitution applied to illogical extremes. Right away it started on a very shaky foot when they staged a scene of themselves in a restaurant with a noisy musician nearby, annoying them. "You're annoying us - let's legislate against you," they began, implying that second-hand smoke was on the same level of loud music, nothing more than an annoyance.

The most important thing to note about this argument is that there *is* legislation against loud music. It's called disturbing the peace. So apparently "annoying" habits are regularly legislated against, including the one they were trying to portray as absurd as an analogy.

Their main thread in this argument was that since there was no direct data that linked second-hand smoke to illness, second-hand smoke is therefore okay to have around. Their sub-point is that the EPA exaggerated some data in a report they issued in the 90s, and this exaggeration has been used to fuel the legislation against smoking in public. Therefore, they seem to imply that because of the bogus data, the legislation against second-hand smoke is also bogus.

To me, neither of these arguments hold any water. There is a very simple point to be made regarding second-hand smoke - we know smoking causes death and illness. The same chemicals that cause these illnesses are present in second-hand smoke. Therefore, whether or not we can prove that occasional second-hand smoke causes cancer, we do know that it contains very harmful compounds. The only difference between a non-smoker and smoker, then, is the amount of this smoke they are inhaling. Just because it's not proven that a smaller amount of smoke will cause me to die doesn't mean it's perfectly okay for it to be floating around in the air for me to breathe. If I sprayed arsenic and carbon monoxide into someone's face, they would arrest me. If I blow it into someone's face after inhaling it from a cigarette, it's legal in most areas. This is completely illogical to me. Speaking to their second point, just because the data may have been exaggerated, it doesn't mean that it's not fundamentally true.

Anyway, this exposed some of the techniques that Penn and Teller use, and I started looking for them in other episodes, even those episodes with which I wholeheartedly agreed (in other words, all of them). I found something pretty standard in all their arguments. For their opponent, they usually find the absolute most extreme camp they can find, a camp that probably represents 10% of the other side of the argument, and they use that as the face of the enemy. For example, in their episode on eating and feeding the world, whom did they choose as the antagonist? Greenpeace and a group of hippie-freakshows who only eat raw foods. Of course we're going to disagree with these idiots, therefore agreeing with Penn and Teller. We leave the show thinking that any and all genetically-altered foods should be dumped into the 3rd World, bar none.

What they don't show you are the extremely intelligent, forward thinking scientists who recognize the *legitimate* problems with this. Most notably, while genetic engineering may have saved a billion lives it has also done something else very obvious - drastically increased the population. Therefore, deaths related to overpopulation not associated with starvation - like aids, leprosy, and other illnesses - have drastically increased, inverse to the decrease in deaths from starvation, even exceeding it in some areas. So in trying to do good, we could, in the end, be killing more people. I'm not saying I totally agree with this point of view, just that it is a legitimate facet of the argument that isn't so easily dismissed with a wave of the hand like the ignorance of the losers that Penn and Teller put on camera. So be aware as you watch, that there are almost always more viable arguments against their points that they are not showing you. By consistently choosing only the far spectrum of their opponents, they safely avoid putting an intelligent adversary - which would probably fall somewhere in between Bullsh*t's POV and the extremist they've chosen - into the equation.

This doesn't mean I won't continue to watch regularly and cheer P&T on, or show these episodes to my more gullible friends who may be environmentalists or alternative medicine subscribers. Just understand that more often than not, there is a wide gap between what Penn and Teller are advocating and whom they choose to portray on their show, and in that gap lies a full spectrum of arguments for you to explore."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
That post was too long. I didn't read most of it. Alot of the ******** shows are specific to America. I'm not in America, so lots doesn't apply to me.

However refeering to something as being in the constitution is a very important argument from what I've seen, and not akin to the bible. It's a document which holds the American society together.
 
I have a friend who is somewhat credulous. Watching Penn and Teller has made him consider many of his views.

I can't think of higher praise.
 
DavoMan said:
However refeering to something as being in the constitution is a very important argument from what I've seen, and not akin to the bible. It's a document which holds the American society together.

How does it do that? What do you think would happen to the US if that document did not exist?
 
Re: Re: What Penn and Teller Do

davidsmith73 said:
I haven't seen any BS episodes. I looked for some reviews on this series and found this one on Amazon. Does anyone here agree with this review?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...Anyway, this exposed some of the techniques that Penn and Teller use, and I started looking for them in other episodes, even those episodes with which I wholeheartedly agreed (in other words, all of them). "

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I actually had the very same reaction as this reviewer. I still watch the show, and am a big fan of the guys. But sometimes I feel less involved with an episode than other times.

By the way, Penn used to work with The Residents back in the 70's. I think he was narrator for the Mole Show.
 
TheBoyPaj said:
How does it do that? What do you think would happen to the US if that document did not exist?
Don't ask me. This is just what Ive seen on TV & from P&T. It looks like its the document that all the USA laws are built on. Remember I'm a kiwi boy. I got to put up with the Treaty of Waitangi. Thats the document which is supposed to keep New Zealand together.

New Zealand has grown enough so the Treaty seems unimportant. NZ seems like it is this modern western country now. Is that what its like in America then?
 
I have no idea what America is like.I've only been there twice. But it seems that you don't know enough to say that the constitution holds the country together.

Suggesting that the country couldn't survive without it is a bit like those people who question how one can have any morals if you don't follow the bible's teachings.
 
'Are Penn and Teller merely entertainers?'

Yes. Although the word 'merely' is odd. Is there less value in being entertaining than otherwise? :-)

It may seem like a cliche but I think the very best entertainers invite us to question everything: ourselves, THEMselves, the very concept of entertainment and so on.

Look at P&T - for example, the engaging way they poke fun at themselves whilst still displaying a bewildering and gleeful mastery of magic. They do this to entertain but their message is very much "we are fooling you....you know this...right?"

Look at some of the better observational comedy such as Peter Kay (probably not known outside of the UK) or The Office. These comedians poke fun at their subjects, but also at their own delight in finding this stuff funny. This to some extent brings skepticism to a mass market. It's asking "What the..." and "Why.." and inviting us to do the same.

This sounds really preachy. It wasn't meant to be.

Cheers

r
 
TheBoyPaj said:
I have no idea what America is like.I've only been there twice. But it seems that you don't know enough to say that the constitution holds the country together.

Suggesting that the country couldn't survive without it is a bit like those people who question how one can have any morals if you don't follow the bible's teachings.
Now you're stepping over the line. It might not seem like it socially but the constitution is definately a focal point of American society if at least legally. From what I've seen & heard from Americans the country would fall apart (or drastically change) without its constitution. I'm not a yank & even I know this.
 
DavoMan said:
Don't ask me. This is just what Ive seen on TV & from P&T. It looks like its the document that all the USA laws are built on. Remember I'm a kiwi boy. I got to put up with the Treaty of Waitangi. Thats the document which is supposed to keep New Zealand together.

New Zealand has grown enough so the Treaty seems unimportant. NZ seems like it is this modern western country now. Is that what its like in America then?

You're absolutely correct in what the constitution is supposed to be; we are a constitutional republic. For many generations now the Dems and the Reps have only been paying lip service to it and have subverted it's meaning left and right (no pun intended).

Penn is a libertarian, probably of the big L variety. That makes him a strict constitionalist, pretty much. He makes no secret about his political views and in fact is a vocal advocate. That's mostly what they've turned their show into.

If Penn posted on this forum, he'd likely be received much as is Shane. I don't know if he'd be so doggedly obtuse but suffice it to say he'd get along much better with Shane than our conservative members and much better with our conservative members than our liberal members. That's my take anyway.
 
Kiless said:
I'm prompted to do this because of a rather good question:

'Are Penn and Teller merely entertainers?'

And what sources would you cite to indicate otherwise? If indeed, you thought they were more than entertainers?

I have on another computer, several essays by Penn that illustrate more than just a whimsical 'bad boy' comedian, I know of the Cato institute and will go poking around there today to see what they have to say directly about the pair; I collect the 'Bull&*^t' DVDs and watch them, I've been to TAM3 and heard them speak..... where else would one go if you were indeed, thinking of demonstrating their contributions beyond sheer entertainment? I know that their books 'Play With Food', et al, are also excellent in demonstrating the thinking behind what they do. I'm also considering citing their videos too.... ah, their movie is a good one too, I think.
Most comedians are not only entertainers but sarcasts. One of the benefits of being a comedian is that you can present an argument without much debate or challenge. Yet, your argument is heard even in between laughs and applause. Of course, you better get laughs or the whole thing could back-fire. If P & T weren't such good comedians, they would be useless to their other cause.
 
If it weren't for Penn and Teller, I would never have hooked a pickle up to wall current. That's good enough for me.
 
epepke said:
If it weren't for Penn and Teller, I would never have hooked a pickle up to wall current. That's good enough for me.

I was doing that before Penn and Teller made it cool.
 

Back
Top Bottom