What is Perfection?

[Dancing David]

I'm saying the design was already there, and it was just a matter of allowing it to unfold, you know, like the petals of a flower. What would a flower be, if it wasn't already "predisposed" to being a flower? There's nothing arbitrary about it being a flower in the least.

This statement concerning the nature of evlution shows that you might just be over generalizing.

The evolution of dna/rna would allow for the developement of sturcture but that process allows for the sturcture, it does not predisign it.

 

[Dancing David]

Well, thank you very much! I was unaware of that. However, who's to say that I may or may not be dying from cancer at this very moment?

Usaualy dying people show more compassion for the suffering of others, if you are dying , it is not perfection.

 

[Dancing David]

Matter-of-fact this was the very sin in the Garden of Eden, the denial of Unity as a whole which, is what Adam and Eve were supposed to represent (the Yin and Yang if you will), through the partaking of knowledge ... instead of living by intuition. At which point they became separate from the whole and noticed they were naked, as a sign of their separation. Hence, there's been emnity between men and women -- and God -- ever since.

Again Iachuss, you would benefit from reading more about the mythology.

1. Did ADM and EV commit a sin.
2. Did they become incarnate after they ate the fruit or whn they 'clothed themselves in the skins of animals'.
3. is YHVH the creator?

 

[Radrook]

What does "pilloring" mean, from Piscivore's response to your comment I pressume that it's something bad. When I want to insult somebody I prefer to do it in a direct manner because all the fun in insulting others is to get it out of your chest.

You are to be commended for finding fun in insulting people directly instead of having fun in doing it indirectly. Sorry if I misunderstood. Thanks for clarrifying.

 

[Z]

While part of me is appalled at the idea of finding insulting people 'fun'... another part of me finds it fun.

Ugh...

And on that note - Nelson is a very unfortunate name to have. It conjures images of chunky geeks in school with runny noses and offensive body odours.

(Oh, Kettle! You's black, yo!) <-- in other words, if you only knew what MY name is...

 

[Iacchus]

This statement concerning the nature of evlution shows that you might just be over generalizing.

The evolution of dna/rna would allow for the developement of sturcture but that process allows for the sturcture, it does not predisign it.

Structure begets structure. Not vice versa. If it was not already predisposed towards structure, it would not have developed.

 

[Iacchus]

Usaualy dying people show more compassion for the suffering of others, if you are dying , it is not perfection.

So we die and shed our skins to come ever closer to the notion of perfection. Why? Because we've now passed over into the realm of the concept, wherein perfection is possible. So what's so God awful about death anyway? Even if it only meant achieving a state of perfect nothingness? At least there would be no more suffering to whine and complain about, right?

 

[Iacchus]

The possible evolution of intelligence is a great field , especialy when you involve the compatative ethology from other animals.

No structure; no intelligence.

 

[Radrook]

While part of me is appalled at the idea of finding insulting people 'fun'... another part of me finds it fun.

Ugh...

And on that note - Nelson is a very unfortunate name to have.
It conjures images of chunky geeks in school with runny noses and offensive body odours.

(Oh, Kettle! You's black, yo!) <-- in other words, if you only knew what MY name is...

Agreed, Nelson is a ugly downright messed up name.

 

[Iacchus]

There's no such thing as perfection to be taken as a whole, Iacchus. Perfection is not an object, but an abstract quality; as such, you can't 'take it apart' any more than you can take apart heat, or beauty, or large. There are no 'pieces' to perfection; there is no 'whole' to be considered.

Consider the nature of the moment. Isn't that abstract? And yet it encompasses everything.

You then perform the further fallacy of comparing an abstract ideal to a concrete object - Perfection vs. Universe. You might as well compare Ugly vs. Tree or Bright vs. Woodpecker. Total nonsense, once again.

And how do you know that reality isn't in fact built upon one abstraction after another? Ever trip over the laws of physics?

 

[Mercutio]

Structure begets structure. Not vice versa. If it was not already predisposed towards structure, it would not have developed.

Iacchus, do you even understand the concept of circularity in definition? Do you understand why circularly defined concepts are useless? Do you understand that every example of predisposition you have used has been circularly defined?

It is rather amusing to see the hoops you have to jump through in order to maintain your claim that suffering comes from ignorance.

 

[Iacchus]

Iacchus, do you even understand the concept of circularity in definition? Do you understand why circularly defined concepts are useless? Do you understand that every example of predisposition you have used has been circularly defined?

And when you open the valves on an irrigation system, doesn't the water tend to follow a predefined course?

It is rather amusing to see the hoops you have to jump through in order to maintain your claim that suffering comes from ignorance.

When people do stupid things people suffer. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Radrook]

There are multiple causes for suffering.
One of which might be ignorance.

 

[Radrook]

So because you sense a purpose in yourself (I must admit, it's eluded me), the universe as a whole must have a purpose? When you sense hunger in yourself, do you presume the universe as a whole wants a taco?

Were talking universe here.
Why just a taco?
Why not a side of beef!
A whole steer for that matter.

 

[Iacchus]

There are multiple causes for suffering.
One of which might be ignorance.

Of course there is such a thing as suffering directly as a result of the ignorance of others. Which, no doubt ranks right up there at the top of the list. And why do we like to torment other people? Because we are suffering inside ourselves.

 

[Mercutio]

And when you open the valves on an irrigation system, doesn't the water tend to follow a predefined course?

When we pour water on the ground, does it follow a predefined course? (note, the path that water takes along a slope is one of the classic examples of chaos) Was the current shape of the grand canyon predestined? A circular definition of predisposition would suggest that, because the Grand Canyon is the shape it is, it was predestined to be so. There is no reason to think it could not have been any of a near-infinite variety of other shapes. Can you predict (if the concept of predestination is to have any utility at all, you should be able to) the next roads that will be washed out if floods? The next dam that will give? The next town that will be destroyed? After all, doesn't the water tend to follow a predefined course?

When people do stupid things people suffer. Is that so hard to understand?

Do people suffer every time people do stupid things? Do they suffer only as the result of people doing stupid things? I suggest that the answer to both questions is no. I can think of many examples--I leave it as an exercise of discovery for you to see if you can.

 

[Dancing David]

And when you open the valves on an irrigation system, doesn't the water tend to follow a predefined course?

Ah but evolution is not predetermined, had hominids not walked upright chances are we would not be talking on the computer. Had they stayed hanging under tree we would syill be more like gibbons.
Had a comet not struck the earth about the time that antartica split from india then the course of evolution would be very different. A gracile dinosaur might have arisen or the earth might be waiting for a different species to evolve intelligence, it is a contingent property not an unavaoidable one.

I understand the part that the potential for a uniform or consistant method of molecular bonding is what leads to rna/dan, and I agree, if chemical bound chaoticaly then the process would not work.

But the fact that it did arise is still contingent upon the path taken, a different turn in the course and you get different dna/rna with different properties and potentialy a whole different expression of potential lifeforms.

So I see no predisposition there.


When people do stupid things people suffer. Is that so hard to understand?

There is a lot more suffering than that brought about by ignorance, parasites are almost unavoidable in most ways.

 

[Dancing David]

And why do we like to torment other people? Because we are suffering inside ourselves.

Some people do it for pleasure, I find that distatsteful but it is true.

Where does suffering come into perfection?

 

[Radrook]

Some people do it for pleasure, I find that distatsteful but it is true.

Where does suffering come into perfection?

If suffering violates or meets the criterion for perfection then it is relevant to perfection.

 

[uruk]

When people do stupid things people suffer. Is that so hard to understand?

People suffer even when they do the right thing.

Originally posted by Iacchus
And why do we like to torment other people? Because we are suffering inside ourselves.

Sometimes people cause other people to suffer when they are trying to stop thier own suffering.

How could you know such things were bad, if it weren't from the standpoint of wholeness? Evil is usually self-destructive by the way, and couldn't stand if there wasn't something else to destroy.

So, perhaps in this sense the fruits were ready to be picked and it was time to wipe the slate clean ... and, get back to the notion of perfection..

Good and evil are relative. Religion has done and is doing "evil" things right now and yet it still stands.

Evil and suffering are part of the whole. inseprable. Therefore evil and suffering is perfect by your philosophy.
You still evade the question of defining perfection. you do so because you really don't what you are talking about. You are making it up as you go along. You have no real idea of what suffering and evil or perfection is at all.
sad, sad, sad.