What is Perfection?

[Iacchus]

Most certainly, else we would not learn.

Note nessecarily, species are determined by thier ability to breed within the species, so before cow there is not quite cow. Which is why the egg came before the chicken, the not-quite chicken gave birth to the egg with the chicken.

I think the word we may be looking for here is "predisposition." Certainly, if were not predisposed towards intelligence, we would not be intelligent would we?

 

[Mercutio]

Are you suggesting the fact that we are alive and real and very much aware of it is not an experience of that which is absolute? Or, are we just figments of our own imagination? That's really the only alternative you have to Zaayrdragon's statement.

This does not in any way address my question. I must conclude that you did not understand Zaaydragon. You may feel free to try again.

(start by proposing a meaningful definition of "absolute")

You're implying that the purpose is not already there, in the state of the way things already are. So no, you don't just make up some arbitrary purpose which is not related and pretend like it is.

You did not state a purpose. I proposed several. Kindly state "the" purpose, and back up your statement, and then (and only then) I will heed your objection. As is...sorry, you have not offered an alternative to my purposes, so you really cannot criticise them.

If the Universe wasn't so structured in the way that it is, nothing would have evolved. So, the fact that we here and, are intelliegent, has nothing to do with chance.

This is absolutely wrong. If the universe were not structured as it is, other things would have evolved. That is the entire point, and I am glad you have actually spelled out your misunderstanding. You take it as a given that we were destined to be, when that is not at all the case. There is no evidence whatsoever that we were destined to be, and it is perfectly consistent with our observations of the universe (near and far) that our success had everything to do with chance.

Finally...I am so glad you said this, Iacchus...finally, a statement instead of half a dozen questions. Finally, a peek into what you believe, rather than the smokescreen of what you do not wish us to see. Finally something that can be pinned down...and about which it can be said...you are wrong.

 

[Mercutio]

I think the word we may be looking for here is "predisposition." Certainly, if were not predisposed towards intelligence, we would not be intelligent would we?

Fascinating. An example of "predisposition" that can only be seen after the fact.

Completely circular, Iacchus, and completely useless.

 

[Iacchus]

My point was that suffering in the extreme would indicate the the universe is in no way perfect. Which you still haven't addressed.

Suffering is typically the result of the lack of awareness. But the awareness of what? That which is more ideal or perfect perhaps? So, if that there were case, suffering serves its purpose in the sense that it opens the eyes of the ignorant.

 

[Iacchus]

Fascinating. An example of "predisposition" that can only be seen after the fact.

Completely circular, Iacchus, and completely useless.

Yes, how would I be able to recognize who my Father is if it wasn't until after I was born?

 

[Mercutio]

Suffering is typically the result of the lack of awareness.

Dancing David is perfectly capable of responding to this himself, but I just have to say that this is ridiculous. Suffering the result of lack of awareness? Please explain this one to me...assume, for the purposes of your explanation, that I am a complete idiot, and that you have to spell out every step.


I want to see this.

 

[Iacchus]

This does not in any way address my question. I must conclude that you did not understand Zaaydragon. You may feel free to try again.

Do you believe in the absoluteness of your existence or not? Yes or no? If no, then you're a figment of your own imagination. Simple as that.

 

[Mercutio]

Yes, how would I be able to recognize who my Father is until after I was born?

The only way I could respond to this and stay within your metaphor would be to insult your mother. I will not do that.

I will simply say that your circular definition of "predisposition" renders it completely useless. I eagerly invite you to prove me wrong.

 

[uruk]

I thought I made this pretty clear in the original post.

This is your original post:

So let's say we took perfection and considered it as a whole. And we began to break it up into little pieces. How long do you think it would take to realize that none of these pieces were perfect, in relation to the whole?

So, how do we know for a fact that the Universe, taken as a whole, does not also entail this notion of perfection? If so, then what might that suggest into how it came into being?

Where in this post is your definition of perfection? You talk about perfection but you do not define it.

 

[Mercutio]

Do you believe in the absoluteness of your existence or not? Yes or no? If no, then you're a figment of your own imagination. Simple as that.

Please define "absoluteness" within this context. To me, it adds nothing to the sentence. Do I believe in my existence? I don't have to believe in it, the evidence is there. Do I believe in the absoluteness of my existence? Sorry, I am back to asking you to define "absoluteness". Without a definition, the question is meaningless. If you mean that it had to be, then my answer is no. Which leads me to your conclusion, with which I disagree. With my understanding of "absoluteness" (I repeat, what is your definition?), there is nothing about a "no" answer that implies in the least that I am a figment of my own imagination. (indeed, think about it. A figment of one's own imagination is a logically impossible construct. Does one exist to imagine? Then one is no figment. Does one not exist? Then no imagination to create a figment.)

Do you even think about the definitions of the words you use? Or is this some sort of tone-poem?

 

[Iacchus]

Dancing David is perfectly capable of responding to this himself, but I just have to say that this is ridiculous. Suffering the result of lack of awareness? Please explain this one to me...assume, for the purposes of your explanation, that I am a complete idiot, and that you have to spell out every step.

I want to see this.

Well, if you didn't see the train coming before you crossed the tracks, what would you account that to? A total sense of awareness?

 

[Mercutio]

Well, if you didn't see the train coming before you crossed the tracks, what you account that to? A total awareness?

Please, sir, no questions. Explain to me how a cancer victim's suffering is the result of a lack of awareness. Explain to me how the parent of the person you speak of above, who did not see the train coming....how that person's parent's suffering is the result of a lack of awareness.

Or, of course, withdraw your claim and admit it is untenable.

 

[Iacchus]

This is your original post:

Where in this post is your definition of perfection? You talk about perfection but you do not define it.

It's pretty clear to me. Perfection is defined by the sum of the parts which constitute the whole. In other words perfection is "wholeness."

 

[Iacchus]

Please, sir, no questions. Explain to me how a cancer victim's suffering is the result of a lack of awareness. Explain to me how the parent of the person you speak of above, who did not see the train coming....how that person's parent's suffering is the result of a lack of awareness.

Or, of course, withdraw your claim and admit it is untenable.

Do you believe in cause and effect? Yes or no? If you say yes, then how can you claim ignorance is not the cause of what ails you? ... if, in fact you are unaware of what the disease stems from? Do people get sick arbitrarily or, is there some underlying cause?

 

[Mercutio]

Do you believe in cause and effect? Yes or no? If you say yes, then how can you claim ignorance is not the cause of what ails you? ... if, in fact you are unaware of what the disease stems from? Do people get sick arbitrarily or, is there some underlying cause?

Which part of my first sentence gave you problems?

Are you suggesting that if you are aware of the virus, you will not get sick? Guess what? You are wrong.

Come on, Iacchus. This is beneath all of us. Answer the questions.

 

[Iacchus]

Please, sir, no questions. Explain to me how a cancer victim's suffering is the result of a lack of awareness. Explain to me how the parent of the person you speak of above, who did not see the train coming....how that person's parent's suffering is the result of a lack of awareness.

Or, of course, withdraw your claim and admit it is untenable.

The key here is a lack of awareness, and it doesn't matter by whom, and then the suffering begins to spread, just like any other disease which has its root cause. And then what do we do when we begin to suffer? We take it out on others now don't we?

 

[Iacchus]

Which part of my first sentence gave you problems?

Are you suggesting that if you are aware of the virus, you will not get sick? Guess what? You are wrong.

Come on, Iacchus. This is beneath all of us. Answer the questions.

Yes, if we don't want to get cancer, it may require that we make certain changes in lifestyle in order not to do so. And if we're unaware and don't care, then we're ignorant.

 

[Iacchus]

Finally...I am so glad you said this, Iacchus...finally, a statement instead of half a dozen questions. Finally, a peek into what you believe, rather than the smokescreen of what you do not wish us to see. Finally something that can be pinned down...and about which it can be said...you are wrong.

And what if it were just a matter of rolling out carpet so to speak? Doesn't that pretty much coincide with the idea of evolution as well?

 

[Mercutio]

Yes, if we don't want to get cancer, it may require that we make certain changes in lifestyle in order not to do so. And if we're unaware and don't care, then we're ignorant.

Ah...blame the victim. I have a dear friend whose son died of brain cancer--a very rare form which took him at 16 years old. He was otherwise healthy, did not smoke, ate well, exercised...please tell me, and more importantly tell my friend, what is was that her son was unaware of which caused him to die. Explain to her how it was his fault. Please, because her smile is still not the same, 10 years after cancer took him.

Tell me how an aware person will not get the cold that an unaware person will, given that both of them are exposed to the virus (or are you suggesting that we should be aware of things on such a microscopic scale as to render your suggestion laughable?).

Tell me how another friend, whose baby was born without a cerebral cortex, had her baby die through a lack of awareness. Should she be aware of things at the level of the genetic composition of her fetus?

I strongly suggest you simply abandon this line and admit you were wrong.

 

[Mercutio]

The key here is a lack of awareness, and it doesn't matter by whom, and then the suffering begins to spread, just like any other disease which has its root cause. And then what do we do when we begin to suffer? We take it out on others now don't we?

It does not matter by whom? Ok...well then, please point to anyone at all who is to blame for my friend's son's cancer. It doesn't matter who, just as long as their lack of awareness is the cause of his cancer.

We take it out on others? Not him. Not at all. You would not have known this kid was dying...he was so wonderful. It is only by constantly reminding myself that you do not know this person, and that you speak out of complete ignorance, that I do not demand your apology to his mother for suggesting that her son took his suffering out on others.

Many of your ideas amuse me, Iacchus...this one disgusts me.