• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

What is art?

BillyJoe

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
12,531
This painting probably needs no introduction:

No._5%2C_1948.jpg


In 2006 it sold for $140 million.
It is the most expensive painting ever sold.

But is it art?

What makes it art?
What makes if not art?
In general, what distinguishes art from non art?

Could you be fooled by an art hoax?
For example, is this an art hoax:

28rftvp.jpg
 
Is it art? Yes. And I like it, it stirs something in me. I can see past the initial business and begin to feel things off it.

What makes it art is: "Does It Move You?" ...are you still looking at it, do your eyes want to return to it, even just to figure out if it's making a statement, and if so, what could it be?

What distinguishes art from non-art is a sole person's subjective opinion.

I could easily be fooled by an art hoax, being that I've never had access to "great" art with the leisure and proximity to study detail and nuance; things like cracks in paint or potter's marks. Looking at art images on the internet is the palest comparison to the actual thing...
 
I like both. The hoax appears to be hastily thrown together sponge or roller blotches on a wall but I still enjoy looking at it. I don't care about the art/not art dichotomy, though, so what do I know?
 
Debate has been going on for a long time... Likely prior to DuChamp's "Ready-Mades"....

I recall the 60 Minutes interview with the couple who collected modern art in NY. Among the pieces in their collection was a short piece of rope nailed to the wall. The interviewer asked if that, too was art. "Oh, yes." was the reply. "Why?"
"Because the artist said it was."

In the loosest possible definition, I suppose we might call art anything that conveys something to the viewer. Some emotion or feeling. This might not (and often is not) the feeling that the artist intended.
I'm of the opinion that art should also require some degree of skill or process or planning as well...
But obviously much of modern art does not require that addition.
 
Part of the problem is that only people with certain brain structures can appreciate abstract art like this. It depends on how you process visual information.

It's like those "hidden spaceship" pictures like the one in the Seinfeld episode. Some people just don't have the neural apparatus to see the hidden image. In a similar manner, some people can't appreciate abstract art. Those people often assume that others see the same thing they do, and so they think those people are posers or phonies for talking about how great the painting is.

I'm one of those that don't get it. But I'm willing to bet that whoever paid $140 million for that painting does get it.
 
Part of the problem is that only people with certain brain structures can appreciate abstract art like this. It depends on how you process visual information.

It's like those "hidden spaceship" pictures like the one in the Seinfeld episode. Some people just don't have the neural apparatus to see the hidden image. In a similar manner, some people can't appreciate abstract art. Those people often assume that others see the same thing they do, and so they think those people are posers or phonies for talking about how great the painting is.

I'm one of those that don't get it. But I'm willing to bet that whoever paid $140 million for that painting does get it.

You may be right, but I doubt it has anything to do with the way our brains are wired. I like some modern art and if anything, I may be too shallow to appreciate more of it 'properly'. (I also feel the same way about poetry). I think its all BS. Pollack lived a tortured life and was the starving artist (actually i don't know, i'm just assuming) so he poured his soul into his work. At least that's what his fans would say. If Joe blow in the mid-west was an accountant and produced the exact same paintings in his spare time, no one in the art world would have cared. The criteria used by critics or dealers or whoever to determine the price of a piece of art is crap.

I do like the idea that its all personal and each piece should be considered for its impact it has on us individually.
 
Part of the problem is that only people with certain brain structures can appreciate abstract art like this. It depends on how you process visual information.

It's like those "hidden spaceship" pictures like the one in the Seinfeld episode. Some people just don't have the neural apparatus to see the hidden image. In a similar manner, some people can't appreciate abstract art. Those people often assume that others see the same thing they do, and so they think those people are posers or phonies for talking about how great the painting is.

I'm one of those that don't get it. But I'm willing to bet that whoever paid $140 million for that painting does get it.

So when the Emperor appears naked, it's just that I lack the necessary special brain cells to truly appreciate how richly attired the Emperor is? After all, he paid a lot of money for that invisible suit. And when you can't show me those special brain cells, will it be because I lack...well, you get it. It's brain cells all the way down...
 
Billy Joe, I have seen a very very very similar "piece of art" at the local paint shop (virtually indistinguishable except by color, but if you don't know about the color you would not be able to recognize one from the other).

Can I retrieve that thin slice of ground and sell it 140 M$ ? I doubt it. That should tell it all the story. Because the other one was declared to be art by some "artist" it suddenly has a bigger value, and because "some" ""expert"" (eleventy scary quote) declared its value to be so high, it suddenly is.

IMHO a piece of art that joe-average can make with a few can of different color, within a few minutes of spare time, by splashing color at random, is not art. Something you could CONFUSE with TRASH if you are not warned in advance is *NOT* art. You would never confuse a Monet with trash. That above ? trash.

But hey, then again i think the whole "modern" art movement is ******** and will not live time with maybe a few exception.
 
Last edited:
Im not sure I really get it either, most of the time. I know if I like it. I think theres alot of intellectual masturbation surounding art. The Pollok does nothing for me and I wouldnt be surprised if it was purchased as a business opportunity rather than for the art.

My brother went to the Royal College in London studying fine art and I asked him this question once. He gave me a rather unsatisfactory answer that, if the art makes people talk about it, then its good art.

Like dance and music, I believe art is just another form of human expression. The same as Religion and all its paraphernalia. Im (probably) an athiest, but I can still see the amazing profound human expression in the building of a cathedral or Handel's Messiah (or stone henge come to that).

Probably trying to determine whats good art and whats bad is pointless if the art was created honestly. Art created to make money, comercialy probably has its limits and is arguably not art at all (e.g Pop Idol).

How much the art is worth? its worth as much as anyone is prepared to pay for it. I think the price label neither adds nor removes from the art itself. It is what it is, and the price somone is willing to pay is a completely seperate issue to if the art is good or bad. Putting a price on art is perhaps another (bad) form of human expression (greed) and is more about economics than art.

I think there is art in fashion design, but the whole Paris catwlk show thing makes my skin crawl and again arguably has nothing to do with art. I think thats more about greed and vanity than art.
 
Last edited:
I recall the 60 Minutes interview with the couple who collected modern art in NY. Among the pieces in their collection was a short piece of rope nailed to the wall. The interviewer asked if that, too was art. "Oh, yes." was the reply. "Why?"
"Because the artist said it was."

On a similar note I recall watching some arty show presented by Muriel Grey (always fancied her) who is a Scottish TV presenter and writer. She was talking with the director of some art exhibition which featured a number of abstract pieces. The type that seem to invoke public outrage of the,

"That's not worth £2.4 million" Type.

Reaching into her pocket she scrunched up a paper hanky and placed it on a nearby plinth and asked the director what he thought of her "artwork". His reply was along the lines of,

"It is rubbish, it is not at all artistic because you had no intent behind the piece, you had no real motivation to make it and cannot describe what emotion you would like to invoke with your piece. Most of all, it is rubbish because you, my dear, are not an artist."

Obviously that is not word for word but it is close enough. It always stuck with me because it allowed me to see through my art ignorant eyes just how some of the more abstract pieces and installations do have merit and worth and even on one or two occasions I have "got" what the artist was going for.
 
Last edited:
Art is whatever an artist creates or constructs and calls 'art', or what others would call art when the artist would not. :covereyes
 
"It is rubbish, it is not at all artistic because you had no intent behind the piece, you had no real motivation to make it and cannot describe what emotion you would like to invoke with your piece. Most of all, it is rubbish because you, my dear, are not an artist."

Sorry, but that's nonsense. A piece should stand on its own. When you look at a piece, you should be able to tell if its art or not. You shouldn't have to read the description or title or artist bio to know if its art. You don't hear a song and say, "I'm not sure if that is good or not. First let me read the CD liner and do some research on the performers. Only then will I be able to determine if its a good song."
 
If Joe blow in the mid-west was an accountant and produced the exact same paintings in his spare time, no one in the art world would have cared. The criteria used by critics or dealers or whoever to determine the price of a piece of art is crap.

My mother is a semi-professional painter (she sells a few works at art shows every year). When she asked a more experienced artist how she could sell more paintings, he told her she wasn't charging enough. Paradoxically, if the price is low, the demand goes down because the buyer thinks it's intrinsic worth is tied to the price tag.

So apparently some weird economics comes into play where art is concerned.
 
Sorry, but that's nonsense. A piece should stand on its own. When you look at a piece, you should be able to tell if its art or not. You shouldn't have to read the description or title or artist bio to know if its art. You don't hear a song and say, "I'm not sure if that is good or not. First let me read the CD liner and do some research on the performers. Only then will I be able to determine if its a good song."

One of the most puzzleing aspects of the Fine Arts is that it's value is determined, in part, by its historical context.

If a high-quality painting by an unknown contemporary of Leonardo da Vinci were discovered in a basement somewhere, it would fetch a pretty good price. However, if a modern artist produced the same painting, it would be dismissed as a pastiche. Revisiting the same style and technique of past artists is strictly forbidden.

Why can't the work stand on it's own merits, you ask? That's a good question.
 
Similar to what others have said, I define art as:
Something created and/or presented for the purpose of conveying an emotion or other visceral sensation to those that observe it.
I don't think the reaction of the observer matters. We should classify something as art or not based on the intent of the artist.
I consider art to be "good art" it if is successful in conveying what the artist intends to convey. This may be somewhat independent of whether or not I like it, which will be based what it actually conveys to me (independent of what was intended).
 
This reminds me of an experiment I did when one of my nephews was five. I'd recently made a friend who was into modern art, and I couldn't see any difference between throwing paint at a board and what he called art. So, after many fruitless discussions with my friend, I had my five-year-old nephew fingerpaint a mess. I let it dry and put it in an expensive frame. My friend oohed and aahed over the "art," and spent a good 15 minutes trying to identify the artist, talking about its intention, etc. I ended up leaving it hanging on the wall for several years, and got lots of compliments on it from various visitors, all of whom thought it was interesting, expressive, evocative, etc. It was a smear of green surrounded by a blotch of blue, with a streak of red.

'Twas more than enough for me to conclude that all of the "art" was in the eye of the beholder, and none of it in the artwork itself.

Of course, since then I've come to believe that perhaps it really was art, because there was intention. After all, I directed the five-year-old, then I selected a portion of the page for framing, selected the frame to go with it, and chose where to hang it for the best effect. So if there was any art, I was the artist. The difference between this kind of art and interior design escapes me, though.

I like a nice abstract on subway walls, or even in my own house. However, I usually use the word "decoration" instead of "art." I normally reserve the word "art" for representational pieces, and also for pieces that take experience and skills to create.

Anyone may attempt to replicate my results. Get a five year old, a bunch of fingerpaints, one "real" piece of art, and two frames. Frame them identically, hang them side by side, and invite your friends to tell you their reactions to the paintings.

Part of my cynicism, no doubt, comes from my experience as an editor and writer. I've seen the most risible analyses of fiction from readers and serious lit students, seeing all sorts of things I know were not intended by the authors. But even this doesn't mean that authors don't sometimes create something greater than intended. Perhaps the same thing happens with five-year-old fingerpainters, or professional modern artists. Yet a part of me remains unwilling to use the word "art" to refer to an interestingly-shaped lump of clay, a collection of garbage can lids, or a pile of stacked lumber. If while painting my house, I accidentally back into a wet wall and then sit on the couch, the resulting blotch is not art. If an artist produces my blotch intentionally, it's still not art.

But that's just me.
 

Back
Top Bottom