What if evolution is (the) intelligent (designer)?

I've put this in this forum because it is largely concerned with an arbitrary (but, I believe, defensible) definition of "intelligence."
"Arbitrary" and "believe", followed by "definition" and "intelligence", all in the first sentence. I'm going to mark your name down in the Philosopher camp.

Intelligo, intelligere : to perceive, understand. That's the freight the word carries. Whatever it is that you are arbitrarily defining it is not intelligence. When defining arbitrary things think up names for them. If you want to define intelligence, for whatever reason, you'll have to deal with the freight. Perception, understanding, planning.

Assigning intelligence to evolution is a category error; evolution is a stochastic phaenomenon which can as easily be red and wiggly as intelligent. Evolution is all about who/what wakes up in the morning and who/what doesn't. Or wakes up inside something else or with something else waking up inside it ... it's not pretty in the main, but it's unintentional. No perception, no plan, no understanding, no aqueducts, and most certainly no mercy.
 
Evolution:
- Generates novel responses to novel signals from the earth's environment, in the form of new genomes and creatures.

Evolution doesn't generate novelty. Evolution explains why novelty increases over time. Novel genomes are generated all the time, some are useful, most aren't, lots don't matter. Some are only useful because times are a'changing.

- Responds to novel situations in a manner that promotes the continuation of the process, by diversifying and disseminating the living populations in which the process occurs.

Life is all about competition, in which there will always be winners even if they're only the least-losers. The continuation of life on Earth - "the process", which is actually one humungous chemical reaction that started way back and is still going on - is not threatened by anything less than cosmic-scale catastrophe. Life has continued at times by the very opposite of diversification - mass extinction. Diversification followed later. All the time evolution kept on doing its thing - ticking off who woke up this morning, who didn't, yadda yadda.
 
Important Observation: Life appears to have developed features based on earlier, modified features. Wings, fins, and arms and legs all appear to be the same basic design, heavily modified. Evolution explains this. Intelligent design does not (necessarily.) If wings were to be designed, why make them appear as if they are the same basic design as arms and legs? And for both, why fins? Wouldn't you use a different design of bones?
A nit-pick, but with the best of intentions. Fish-fins in general have no bones, the link is only to certain fish that got into scudding along the bottom or working their way through mangrove swamps. They developed the bony digits. There are fossil fish with five, six and seven digits but all land creatures today, via the amphibians, reptiles and so on, are from the five-digit family. So we're cursed with the decimal system - intelligent design? I think not :mad: .
 
If your definition of "Intelligent", in this case, is simply a substitute for "nature", where this "intelligence" does everything nature does, with the same limits and capabilities, than all you've done is assign a new synonym for "nature".

I think most academic folks assign the word "intelligent" to something where there is clear defining and aspiring towards a goal. Evolution never aspires to anything, nor does it work towards a goal. It is just a blind process.

And, I certainly don't think you'll win the hearts of the Intelligent Design community with that argument, either, if that happened to be your goal. They want an Intelligence that can shape and interact with life forms, and yet is asinine enough to do the sort of mediocre job a natural process could have easily done on its own.
 
I thought that one of the key points of Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" and Dawkin's "The Blind Watchmaker" was that Natural Selection was the unintelligent designer.

Thanks to Darwin, we don't need to posit an intelligent designer anymore. We now have Natural Selection to explain design.
 
This reminds me of the idea of cell driven evolution a friend of mine once debated me about. In the end, he failed to give any reason or evidence that the cells of creatures have any sort of will at all. It seems to all just be a process going on, no more aware than the physics governing the forming of a planet or the eruption of a volcano. Then I found out he thinks that things like galaxies are self aware and the process of forming stars is the proof. That's basically when I washed my hands of the whole thing.

Why is it that creationists, intelligent designers, and that one crazy friend of mine online, insist on grouping evolution with astronomy and so on? What sort of survival of the fittest is there in star and planet formation? A star system with planets is no more likely to survive than a star system with just two stars orbitting each other. In fact I understand bi star systems are the norm. Evolution requires selection against some things. It's kinda important. I suppose the reason they do so is a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is. They keep looking at the end product backwards, as "how did it get from that to this specific thing?" as opposed to a process that really just doesn't care about end results. The reason star formation is completely unrelated is because it is not in the star's best interest to have life on it, at all. It only matters to US, the end product that depends on that formation, but that's not how it should be viewed!
 
If you define intelligence as such, then of course you can fit evolution to suit that definition. To be honest, I don't think ID advocates would concede that their view intelligence reflects yours.

Sure, we can call computers intelligent by some definitions, but ask a person on the street what would constitute an intelligent system and I'm certain most would hint at self-awareness and the ability to combine an awareness of the past and the future into a model which they would use to manipulate their surroundings (i.e. human intelligence).

Since you defined intelligence, I cannot say you're wrong (any more than I can deny somebody who has said 'in my hypothesis, a dog is a three-legged winged thing with a beak'. It's your definition. I'm just not convinced that the word would connote that same definition on its own.

Athon
 
Important Observation: Life appears to have developed features based on earlier, modified features. Wings, fins, and arms and legs all appear to be the same basic design, heavily modified. Evolution explains this. Intelligent design does not (necessarily.) If wings were to be designed, why make them appear as if they are the same basic design as arms and legs? And for both, why fins? Wouldn't you use a different design of bones?


Conclusion - God is Lazy.
 
You are discussing the human UTILITY of intelligent evolution, not the evidence. I was asking how you could tell the difference between intelligent evolution and unintelligent evolution. If you can't then your hypothesis is unfalsifiable.
I don't know if Myriad is advancing the hypothesis that evolution is intelligent, given a certain definition of "intelligence". I think its more that evolution defines intelligence (or maybe this is just my own take on it).

The same process of trial and error underlies rational thought and biological evolution. Intelligence is either trial and error or the recalled "knowledge" of previous trial and error. What else could it be? In biology "error" is failure to survive. In human society error is failure to meet our personal goals, based on desires which are themselves evolved. Dennett explained this beautifully with his "tower of generate and test" idea in Darwin's Dangerous Idea.
 
I've put this in this forum because it is largely concerned with an arbitrary (but, I believe, defensible) definition of "intelligence."

I've been looking for a reasonable definition of intelligence that does not depend on demonstration of the ability to communicate with humans. This is what I've arrived at:

Intelligence (operational definition) as a characteristic of a process: the demonstration of the process's ability to act in favor of self-preservation by counteracting, with novel responses, novel external threats to the continuation of the process.

The crux of the definition is the idea of effective novel responses to novel external signals from (that is, changes in) its environment. The emphasis on self-preservation and "threats" is to distinguish "effective" novel behavior from, say, random behavior. In order to speak of the effectiveness of a reaction to an external event, we must posit some goal on the part of the system doing the reacting. This presents difficulties. We cannot say for certain that anything (except our individual selves) experiences goals as conscious intentions or desires, nor that such experience is causally significant even when it occurs. Nor does the observation of behavior consistently producing a certain effect (such as orbiting around another body in space) imply that it's reasonable to describe the effect produced as a goal.

Self-preservation, though, is at least a likely goal, at least some of the time, of any process or being we would describe as intelligent. If we attempt to imagine system that's intelligent (by traditional meanings of the word), without self-preserving behavior, it seems to lead to contradictions. For instance, we can imagine taking a supposedly intelligent being, such as a person, and put it into an unfamiliar environment containing mortal hazards (let's say, pits). For various reasons, the being might move in a straight line until it falls into a pit, or blunder around at random until it falls into a pit. Perhaps it panics, or it is unable to sense the pits, or it is unable to understand that the pits are hazardous. That does not prove the being is not intelligent, but it does mean that it has not demonstrated its intelligence in this particular case. A being that never exhibitied self-preserving behavior could never demonstrate its intelligence in any such test, and that would call into serious question the notion that it was intelligent in the first place.

Therefore, while self-preservation might not be appropriate for any fully satisfying philosohpical definition of intelligence, it might be the best way available to distinguish intelligence for an operational definition.

Demonstrating self-preservation doesn't require that intelligent agents must always be observed to act in favor of self-preservation, only that they demonstrate the capability of doing so. Nor does it require the attribution of conscious desire or intention. In other words, when we see among a system's novel responses to novel external signals, an overall trend of responses favoring the system's self-preservation, that's sufficient to surmise "intelligence" by this definition.

Evolution:
- Generates novel responses to novel signals from the earth's environment, in the form of new genomes and creatures.
- Responds to novel situations in a manner that promotes the continuation of the process, by diversifying and disseminating the living populations in which the process occurs.

But on a nuts and bolts level, is it reasonable to consider evolution as a potentially intelligent system? Does evolution have the types of "components" we might expect to see in a system capable of intelligence? The answer, I propose, is a definite yes.

The human nervous system is our only definitive example of an intelligent system, but it's generally accepted that computer systems are theoretically capable of intelligent (by common definitions) behavior. Computing theory then tells us that a great number of other systems whose behaviors embody certain sets of rules, all proven computationally equivalent to computers, must then share this same theoretical capability.

What do all these systems have in common?

1. Memory; the ability to preserve symbols or patterns for periods of time, and the ability of that stored information to influence the system's subsequent behavior.

2. The capability of propagating stable patterns from one part of the sytem to another.

3. Nonlinear amplification, by which the effect of a component on the system (the component's outputs) can exhibit a threshold response in relation to the effects of other parts of the system on a component (the component's inputs).

In evolution, #1 is accomplished by genomes; #2 is accomplished by protein machinery at all levels including whole organisms; and #3 is accomplished by selection, the threshold output being whether an organism succeeds in reproducing.

Skeptical criticism, please.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Respectfully Myriad, postulating a new definition of inteeligence so you can fit it into a new definition of evolution so they both appear intelligent and designed for one another changes nothing. Evolution remains a luck and chance theory that just just makes no sense, biologically, mathematically or scientifically.

It is either design and templates of design and a higher POWER called a Creator that created everything in harmony all together or a trillion maybe's all coming together by cahnce and luck over trillions and zillions of lucky years on a lucky planet.

Take your pick, but redefinining definitions seems more like a literary twisting than a scientific determination.
 
I'm not so sure of that. All known intelligent designers have limitations. The existence of inherent limitations in evolutionary products is not proof that the process is not intelligent. Human-designed things tend to only advance in increments too, most of the time, and in many cases where a "leap" appears to have occurred, it can be traced to an already-developed idea having been transplanted from a different discipline.

That's an interesting idea, that if you look at humans solving problems with a small enough granularity, you will see a gradient descent-like observation. That might be true, but I don't think it is true in all cases. Humans can make giant leaps. They can imagine flying, then go make some machines that fly. Evolution must get there in a roundabout way, satisfying the concept of "half a wing" so to speak, while a human designer does not need to do this. (Wings can develop from a flying (i.e. gliding) squirrel type of thing, as bats probably did, or from some arbitrary extrusion or mutation of leg, or from some arms that were used to help propel the 2-legged animal along faster by swatting at air, as I believe is the current theory for birds (which really surprised me.))

That engines developed slowly with better and better power-to-weight ratios, almost incrementally, doesn't mean that humans are bound to that model for everything they do. Eventually someone thinks of the concept of pouring fuel all over a water wheel and lighting it up, presto, jet engine. Nothing incremental about that at all. They didn't have to invent "half a jet engine" and develop it into something useful first in order to get there.
 
Evolution remains a luck and chance theory that just just makes no sense, biologically, mathematically or scientifically.

I just got done describing the mathematics behind evolution, with gradient descent scouring a fitness landscape. This is very well understood mathematically and scientifically. It is used regularly in a number of computer programs to actually figure things out.

Indeed, my entire point in this thread is that our knowledge of how gradient descent works thus also binds evolution since evolution operates via this principle. And observations of actual biological structures out there show that this is exactly what's going on -- evolution isn't like intelligence precisely because it cannot make large leaps. Hence to evolve flight, or eyes, or chemicals, there has to be a way to "get there from here" that doesn't involve a gigantic, and thus highly improbable, mutation.

Do not creationists argue against evolution by claiming to find examples of this? Of things that there's no way could have happened by gradual modification since the intermediate steps would not be useful enough, and would thus disappear as useless wastes of resourses, if not outright harmful to survival directly. (Side note: Most examples used are actually explainable, if not actually and fully explained. And those that are not, it is improper at this time to suggest they can never be explained, and furthermore, it is not logical to claim "god did it". A civilization of scarcely more scientific power than our current one would be capable of this.)
 
Intelligence (operational definition) as a characteristic of a process: the demonstration of the process's ability to act in favor of self-preservation by counteracting, with novel responses, novel external threats to the continuation of the process.

While I do appreciate the work you are doing with this, Myriad, I'd just like to point out that by this definition, a river is intelligent.
 
Respectfully Myriad, postulating a new definition of inteeligence so you can fit it into a new definition of evolution so they both appear intelligent and designed for one another changes nothing. Evolution remains a luck and chance theory that just just makes no sense, biologically, mathematically or scientifically.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "sense". It doesn't make a lot of common sense if one's ego demands that there must be a special reason for one's existence. But it makes scientific sense due to the fact that it's the one all -- all -- the evidence points to.

It is either design and templates of design and a higher POWER called a Creator that created everything in harmony all together or a trillion maybe's all coming together by cahnce and luck over trillions and zillions of lucky years on a lucky planet.
Are you sure there are no other options?
 
That's an interesting idea, that if you look at humans solving problems with a small enough granularity, you will see a gradient descent-like observation. That might be true, but I don't think it is true in all cases. Humans can make giant leaps. They can imagine flying, then go make some machines that fly. Evolution must get there in a roundabout way, satisfying the concept of "half a wing" so to speak, while a human designer does not need to do this.
I think Dennett's scheme answers this. What he calls Popperian creatures have the ability to test ideas out internally, without actually going through the (possibly dangerous) process of testing them out for real. So an aircraft designer can rule out many possibilities without actually trying them out physically.

But humans are more than just Popperian creatures we are what Dennett calls Gregorian creatures. We have language and this allows us to focus our trial and error process on refining the methods by which we select and test hypotheses. The ability of language to pick out abstract concepts allows us to think about thinking in a way that no other creature can. So we evolve techniques that have a general utility and can be applied in new and unfamiliar situations.

The key point though is that at no stage is there any direct way of intuiting "truth" or "good ideas". If that's what intelligence required it would be the mysterious thing that ID'ers insist it is.
 
Bisexual is not the same as homosexual.

Jesus Unter, you get dumber by the day.

Dark Jag said "bi systems are the norm".

Our sun is NOT one of a bi system.

Ergo: bisexual does not equal gay.

Learn to read man boy!
 
While I do appreciate the work you are doing with this, Myriad, I'd just like to point out that by this definition, a river is intelligent.

That is an absolutely brilliant analogy, I'm going to borrow that one.

Cheers.
 

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