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What Does Conservatism Offer?

The Republican convention is currently happening and the foul stench of conservative BS is about to be turned to 11, I figure the time is ripe to bump this thread to see if conservatives can marshal an actual case that they really have ideas instead of slogans.


"Eat the poor. Romney 2012"

What do I win?
 
A free relocation from your mom's basement. You're moving on up kid.


Ha, I admit to a chuckle on that one.

Although there are a lot worse places than mom's basement - the world is a scary place.
 
I take issue with the remark that some social conservative opinions are not based in tradition:
My viewpoint is then grounded more in the Traditional Definition than in anything else. I do believe that most Evangelical types however are opposed because of religious grounded opposition to homosexuality.

But this statement seems to be patently false, or at least questionable unless you narrow it down to a very small window i.e. the current status qua "tradition" because if you look at the definition of marriage even withing the xian basis it has altered dramatically in it's history. Not that many lifetimes ago women were traded with but very little difference from livestock. Laws and societal norms held that women were property not much above the slaves people owned. Yet today, even the most ardent religious sects won't openly claim such in the US.

So when you say traditional it simply translates to "what I grew up with as "normal" and not much more. Then you defend it because for what ever reason - benign or malevolent - your not comfortable with change.

It's the same thing with the whole self made man meme that conservatives talk about.
The idea that some lowly man working in his basement can become a millionaire is NOT a conservative idea. It represents everything that conservatives stand for if we use your definition because it implies drastic social change. Conservatives are against that! This is why we here really stupid stuff from the right wing like "small business owners who make $250,000"
 
All political rants aside, to me the operational definitions of "conservatism" vs. "liberalism" have to do with the way cost/benefit or risk/reward analysis is performed, both at an individual and a social level.

Fundamentally, conservatism is about putting more weight behind what exists ( "the way things have been done" ) and what is more directly obvious in such analyses.

For example, the conservative approach to the cost/benefit of any economic change is heavily biased towards the status quo, with the assumption that the status quo is at least working. Any change, even for the better, carries risk, and conservatism tends to view risk as more unacceptable than liberalism.

Another example is the conservative approach to social change -- because helping other people improve their lot isn't as direct a benefit as using those resources to help yourself, or using those resources towards tangible improvements that help yourself, the social conservative tends to resist change in that direction -- the risk just isn't worth the reward, statistically. This sounds bad, but it isn't -- it is just another approach. I don't think conservatives are "more greedy" than liberals -- I am a liberal, and I am very greedy -- I just think conservatives use a more greedy algorithm when deciding how best to satisfy their greed.

On the opposite end, liberalism tends to put less weight on the possible risk involved in change. This isn't necessarily better than conservatism, just a different approach.

In the history of our species, the pattern you see is that conservatism leads to a statistically higher rate of survival in the usual cases, while liberalism leads to the jumps in society that end with conservative societies being left behind. This makes sense in terms of any other endeavor in life -- if you gamble, you can either place small, conservative bets, and win more often, or place large liberal bets, and take a ton of risk. But when you win a big bet, you win big.

The issue we are seeing today isn't that conservatives have changed so much ( in my opinion ) since I don't consider the GOP conservative -- they are just nutters. But "true" conservatives still face a problem -- the rate of advancement in all aspects of our species means that prior conservatives need to become liberal just to survive, while the liberals need to embrace even more change to stay liberal.

Basically, it is no longer possible to have as much bias against risk and remain competitive in almost any aspect of life. And as we change faster and faster, it gets worse and worse. If you are a worker, you need to take the risk of spending resources ( your time, your money ) to learn new skills -- otherwise, you are obsolete. If you are a nation, you need to update your infrastructure faster and faster. If you are a company, you need to replace your computers and change your business model more and more. If you are a doctor, you need to buy medical equipment and get new training more and more frequently. It just doesn't work to place so much stock in tradition anymore because "tradition" isn't meaningful when we grow at such a fast pace.

I can speak to this directly because I'm a software engineer -- the software industry ( well, the digital industry in general ) is a microcosm of human society when it comes to change. For decades, the technology changed at a pretty slow pace -- you could learn a skill, and stay competitive for 5 or 10 years with it. Nowadays, the operating system in smartphones changes so fast that you can't expect system specific knowledge to remain current for more than a single year or so. And if you are involved in the internet, trying to develop applications that need to steal customers from other applications, all based on the latest and greatest idea that is only weeks old, before another company does the same to you, the dangers of being conservative *at all* are hyper-real. I can only imagine how fast stuff changes in the actual smartphone hardware industry, heck it seems like they come out with new models every few months. And don't even get started with things like CPUs and video cards -- every month there are new features and new releases. If you fall behind, you die. Period.

Likewise with the rest of life.
 
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"Eat the poor. Romney 2012"
Not quite that bad.

  1. Give more tax breaks to the rich.
  2. Get rid of public health care.
  3. Reduce regulations on banks and businesses.
  4. Increase military spending.
  5. Increase the deficit.
Middle class and poor (AKA suckers) must wait for the wealth to further trickle down like it has since 2003 (which is to say it hasn't). Never mind that corporate profits are at an all time high. Never mind that the disparity between rich and poor is at an all time high and that there is more wealth held by the top tiers of society than anytime in history.


The GOP doesn't want to eat the poor but they sure as hell don't have any policies to directly assist them. They only want to take programs that directly assist the poor away because when it comes to the poor, less is more.
 
I consider myself conservative and here's what I believe:

The government should get out of the way as much as possible when it comes to the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the people. It is not the government's job to provide those things; that's our job. Instead, the government should concern itself primarily with:

1)Defending the nation - so that we are free to live without fear
2)Providing a limited system of law - to protect citizens from each other
3)Develop infrastructure - so that the citizenry can conduct their daily business
4)Provide a social safety net - so that the poorest of our citizens have an opportunity to get back on their feet

That's about as succinct as I can get.
 
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I consider myself conservative and here's what I believe:

The government should get out of the way as much as possible when it comes to the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the people. It is not the government's job to provide those things; that's our job Instead, the government should concern itself primarily with:

1)Defending the nation - so that we are free to live without fear
2)Providing a limited system of law - to protect citizens from each other
3)Develop infrastructure - so that the citizenry can conduct their daily business
4)Provide a social safety net - so that the poorest of our citizens have an opportunity to get back on their feet

That's about as succinct as I can get.

I like this. Do you think ideas promoted by conservatives generally reflect these principles? Do you think policies reflecting these principles are likely to be implemented by conservative politicians?
 
I like this. Do you think ideas promoted by conservatives generally reflect these principles? Do you think policies reflecting these principles are likely to be implemented by conservative politicians?

I think that the road to implementation is very rough. There are too many ideologies at war with each other in the "conservative movement." Not to mention the other side of the coin - the liberal movement. So the answer to your question is no, I guess. I don't think a radical overhaul of our government is in the cards anytime soon.

However, I do believe that of the two politicians with any shot of actually getting elected, Romney would tend to a more conservative approach.
 
I think the current party is looking to toss #3 and #4 as "socialist".
 
Conservatism is the belief in established traditions as a hard-won storehouse of wisdom. It should be changed, and only slowly and with great debate.

Liberalism is the belief that society needs large breaks with the past to save itself from itself.


Things like gay marriage, or abortion before it, or minority rights before it, can't come into being until a critical mass of society gets behind it. Only then can a handful of vanguard judges try to declare a change, legislating from the bench, or would Congress even dream of passing different laws.

At that point, people play mind games with themselves that, golly, everyone opposed is evil incarnate. Yet only a few years earlier, any politician saying that would get their hat handed to them at the next election.

What one takes from this is to just keep pushing on those ideas if you want to change them. "Liberalism" as harbinger of change only precedes conservatism by a few years or a decade. Many states were liberalizing abortion laws by conscious decision and legislation when some judges decided critical mass had been achieved and they changed things for all.


As far as spending goes, Bush, Jr., increased spending a lot, especially near the end of his term. This is a liberal position, and he was called on it at the time.

I find it interesting that you call conservatism "bankrupt" insofar as the politicians deviate from it into liberalism.

Neither party abides by conservatism vs liberalism.

The two labels are nothing more than a link to better days when black and white was discernible as black and white.
 
I think that the road to implementation is very rough. There are too many ideologies at war with each other in the "conservative movement." Not to mention the other side of the coin - the liberal movement. So the answer to your question is no, I guess. I don't think a radical overhaul of our government is in the cards anytime soon.

However, I do believe that of the two politicians with any shot of actually getting elected, Romney would tend to a more conservative approach.
The younger generations are more and more liberal. Especially when it comes to social issues. I don't know when but there will be a huge ideological shift in the GOP. Likely within the next decade.
 
Whoa what? CBF to check the whole thing, where does it say that?

“Ideological bias is deeply entrenched within the current university system. Whatever the solution in private institutions may be, in State institutions the trustees have a responsibility to the public to ensure that their enormous investment is not abused for political indoctrination. We call on State officials to ensure that our public colleges and universities be places of learning and the exchange of ideas, not zones of intellectual intolerance favoring the Left.”

Page 37.

It certainly sounds like they want to silence any opposing viewpoints...
 
“Ideological bias is deeply entrenched within the current university system. Whatever the solution in private institutions may be, in State institutions the trustees have a responsibility to the public to ensure that their enormous investment is not abused for political indoctrination. We call on State officials to ensure that our public colleges and universities be places of learning and the exchange of ideas, not zones of intellectual intolerance favoring the Left.”

Page 37.

It certainly sounds like they want to silence any opposing viewpoints...

Sounds more like a call to end the practice of the silencing of any opposing viewpoints in universities by the "progressives" currently in control.
 
“Ideological bias is deeply entrenched within the current university system. Whatever the solution in private institutions may be, in State institutions the trustees have a responsibility to the public to ensure that their enormous investment is not abused for political indoctrination. We call on State officials to ensure that our public colleges and universities be places of learning and the exchange of ideas, not zones of intellectual intolerance favoring the Left.”

Page 37.

It certainly sounds like they want to silence any opposing viewpoints...

Certainly a smokescreen because there is no political left in US realpolitik. Nor is there a right for that matter.
 
Certainly a smokescreen because there is no political left in US realpolitik. Nor is there a right for that matter.
You mean that there is no "left", right? Because America is far more "right" than any other industrialized nation. I think all we are is, basically, right, just different shades of right. Obama sure as hell isn't left. I'm hard pressed to think of many leaders who are on the left. There are a few but they are so rare as to be statistically insignificant. Now, the right, jeez, we've had thousands of provisions impinging on women's reproductive rights. If there were as many provisions attacking gun rights the nation would be in meltdown mode.

Help me out here, are you serious?
 

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