What did Democrats do wrong?

[dirtywick]

you should probably check into that imo

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Bernie quit the Democratic party when he lost the primaries.

You seem to have this conceit that Sanders was a career Democrat who only left the party in a huff relatively recently.

Bernie Sanders has been independent for decades. His refusal to formally join the Democratic party has been a thing throughout his career.

The relationship between candidacy and party affiliation is more nuanced than you assume, even in a politial system as two-party-dominated as the US.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Well, that's what I get for being sarcastic.

Well, we were working with the "lose 1 to gain 5 vs lose 5 to gain 1" scenario that Beelzebuddy introduced, and there are more in the center, center left and center right than on the far left by a significant margin.

Yeah, I did it that way on purpose. If I'd have said the hypothetical marginalized voters were one centrist and five progressives you'd have insisted the Democratic party stay with the one centrist because the other five weren't appreciative enough to deserve representation, but I figured the other way around you'd be more likely to engage in the non-zero-sum exercise. And holy crap did you! I wasn't really expecting four entire pages of you and Emily's Cat creaming your shorts about how bad you think progressives are given the flimsiest of excuses. Get a grip. Or maybe a room, I don't know, you do you.

But speaking of losing some voters to gain others, and also things Democrats have done wrong, here's good 'ol Chuck Schumer's classic 2016 strategy:

For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.

The success of the Clinton administration, ushered in by her dominant performance in all of these swing states, ultimately proved the wisdom of tossing long term supporters under the bus in a relentless pursuit of the middle.

 

[Tero]

I was arguing with a MAGA dude and blocked him. No idea what his name was.

Tero Gervais (@tero55gervais) on Threads

Just had to block someone today for claiming Musk had "earned it all."

www.threads.com

But anyway, he said Musk had earned it all. And called me a communist. I refrained from explaining to him that it's too late to tax Musk. And on the topic of wealth, he did not know a billion was 1000 million. I give up.

 

[theprestige]

I was arguing with a MAGA dude and blocked him. No idea what his name was.

Tero Gervais (@tero55gervais) on Threads

Just had to block someone today for claiming Musk had "earned it all."

www.threads.com

But anyway, he said Musk had earned it all. And called me a communist. I refrained from explaining to him that it's too late to tax Musk. And on the topic of wealth, he did not know a billion was 1000 million. I give up.

Is this supposed to be yet another illustration of what the Democrats did wrong?

 

[Tero]

Is this supposed to be yet another illustration of what the Democrats did wrong?

We told them facts. They can't do math, so you need to show them things that make them hate the rich, or at the least envy them.
They don't like to be ripped off. If you tell them Trump and Musk are ripping them off, it's "do think I'm stupid?" and well, that is where the cut you off.

 

[wareyin]

You seem to have this conceit that Sanders was a career Democrat who only left the party in a huff relatively recently.

Bernie Sanders has been independent for decades. His refusal to formally join the Democratic party has been a thing throughout his career.

The relationship between candidacy and party affiliation is more nuanced than you assume, even in a politial system as two-party-dominated as the US.

No. I read you bringing up Sanders and saying one could be a Democrat without being the Democratic candidate as you claiming that Sanders was a Democrat despite his famously being an independent. If you are now saying he is not a member of the Democratic Party, and is an Independent, then I do not understand what your previous point in bringing him up was.

I can only repeat the fact that he joined the Democratic Party in order to try to become their candidate, and when he failed to gain the support of Democratic voters, he pointedly and publicly left the party. Twice. Which tells me that he also does not believe he was a Democratic candidate when he ran as an Independent last year, and will not be the Democratic candidate when he runs again in 2030.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

No. I read you bringing up Sanders and saying one could be a Democrat without being the Democratic candidate as you claiming that Sanders was a Democrat despite his famously being an independent. If you are now saying he is not a member of the Democratic Party, and is an Independent, then I do not understand what your previous point in bringing him up was.

Sanders didn't join the party when he ran in 2016. He only agreed to do so in 2019 because the DNC insisted. AFAIK he never formally left the party so much as simply ignored it because he never saw that 2019 agreement as anything other than a hoop for him to jump through. Even then, he continued to identify as Independent as a Senator even while the 2020 Presidential campaign was running. Again, your take is reductive and there is more nuance than you are sharing with your audience.

Speaking of "pointedly and publicly" leaving the Democratic Party, when did Cuomo do that?

 

[wareyin]

So, the mask off racism with no consequences is acceptable party politics? No one could have come out after the general and said Cuomo should drop out? Don't pretend he didn't have support within the party. And none of them said anything when it was revealed that Cuomo was getting advice from Trump. When the same billionaires that were trashing the Biden Administration and backing Trump came out throwing parties for Cuomo, they didn't say anything.

When Cuomo lost the primary, and ran as an Independent, and took advice from Trump, he was not a Democrat. I'm not sure what is confusing you about that. Democratic party people have no say in who runs if that person is not running as a Democrat.

It's not my strategy. I said I don't agree with their actions, but its atleast as stupid to dismiss their criticisms and keep insulting them.

Because they have, y'know, actual power

As members of the minority party, they do not have the power to enact anything. Had short sighted people not put MAGA in power, those centrists would not have been able to help MAGA fund ICE.

Right, we were the ones going ape ◊◊◊◊ about "MEN IN GIRL SPORTS!" and "SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!ONEONEONE"

No, you were the ones who linked arms with those people and shouted "the Dems really suck and should not be voted for! Get Democrats out of Congress" without understanding that the entirely predictable result was Democrats losing, and Republicans winning.

Let's not kid ourselves, there will always be just enough "centrists" to ◊◊◊◊ up the Democrats' plans.

This seems to read like you think progressive candidates are not popular enough with the voters to ever hold sway?

Disregarding a bloc of voters you need is OK, but it's wrong for said voters to react negatively?

Said voters reacting negatively has given the entire country "mask off racism with no consequences", healthcare premiums becoming ridiculously expensive, ICE shooting people in the streets, billionaires gutting government agencies tasked with regulating them, a nutjob anti-vax conspiracy theorist in charge of the CDC, and on and on and on. I would say that these consequences were entirely predictable, and in fact were predicted, so those voters were, in fact, wrong to have intentionally or recklessly caused this.

 

[wareyin]

Sanders didn't join the party when he ran in 2016. He only agreed to do so in 2019 because the DNC insisted. AFAIK he never formally left the party so much as simply ignored it because he never saw that agreement as anything other than a hoop for him to jump through. He continued to identify as independent as a Senator even while the 2020 Presidential campaign was running. Speaking of leaving the Democratic party, when did Cuomo do that?

Sanders certainly claimed to be a Democrat in 2016. "Of course I am a Democrat and running for the Democratic nomination." Then in 2017, after losing, he claimed "I am an independent and I have always run in Vermont as an independent". The reality is that he treats the Democratic Party like a rental car. He uses it to get where he wants to go nationally, but only when it’s convenient. In 2006, 2012, 2018, and most recently in 2024, he ran in the Democratic primary for Senate, won, and then formally declined the nomination just so he could run as an Independent in the general election. He effectively squats on the Democratic ballot line to prevent any actual Democrat from running against him, then throws the Democrat title in the trash the moment the primary is over.

Cuomo was pressured to resign by the Democratic establishment, including Biden. I'd say there is a massive difference between being a "Democrat in good standing" and simply holding a registration card. While Cuomo didn't formally file paperwork to leave the party, he essentially declared war on the Democratic establishment by forming the Fight and Deliver Party and running against the actual Democratic candidate.

By your logic, Sanders is a Democrat because he only used the party to try to win the Presidency despite his 20-year history of rejecting their actual nominations. Yet, you claim Cuomo is still a Democrat despite the party leadership effectively excommunicating him and him forming his own rival party to run as an Independent against the actual Democratic nominee. I think if someone doesn't run as a Democrat and isn't accepted by the party as a Democrat, calling them a Democrat anyway is not a reasonable stance, for either man.

 

[Donal]

When Cuomo lost the primary, and ran as an Independent, and took advice from Trump, he was not a Democrat. I'm not sure what is confusing you about that. Democratic party people have no say in who runs if that person is not running as a Democrat.

Then why were democrats and their donors still backing him? And don't pretend he still isn't involved in the party. Party leaders should have come out and denounced him.

As members of the minority party, they do not have the power to enact anything. Had short sighted people not put MAGA in power, those centrists would not have been able to help MAGA fund ICE.

they do have some power. Especially within their own ranks. They could perform an actual filibuster instead of letting Corny Booker get all this hype and do absolutely nothing with it. They could hold the line against Republicans and let the shutdown keep going. They could maybe no vote for the worst parts of Trump's agenda. They could refuse to confirm any Trump appointees and let the GOP own the whole thing. They could spend less time shanking up and coming members of their party than they do fighting republicans. They could have refused to give Cuellar back any of his committee assignments.

No, you were the ones who linked arms with those people and shouted "the Dems really suck and should not be voted for! Get Democrats out of Congress" without understanding that the entirely predictable result was Democrats losing, and Republicans winning.

Yes, when you ignore your base, you lose.

This seems to read like you think progressive candidates are not popular enough with the voters to ever hold sway?

If leadership took their thumbs off the scale, they probably would be

Said voters reacting negatively has given the entire country "mask off racism with no consequences",

Kirsten Gillibrand. The "mask off racism with no consequences" was a direct reference to Democratic Senator Kirsten Gillibrand.

healthcare premiums becoming ridiculously expensive,

Gee, if only the Democrats had some sort of leverage to fight that.

ICE shooting people in the streets,

That Democrats vote to fund

billionaires gutting government agencies tasked with regulating them, a nutjob anti-vax conspiracy theorist in charge of the CDC, and on and on and on.

that Democrats vote to confirm

I would say that these consequences were entirely predictable, and in fact were predicted, so those voters were, in fact, wrong to have intentionally or recklessly caused this.

Huh, maybe the party that says they could have prevented this should have done more to get their voting base out instead of pandering to people who sit them down, look directly in their eyes, scream "I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR YOUR COMMIE ASSES!", and proceed to spit in their face.

 

[wareyin]

well, no i didn't miss it and my reading comprehension is fine, you're just not answering the questions i'm asking. i'm asking you why you think these things, you're not explaining it you're just restating your claim.

i mean, if you don't want to explain it that's fine, just say that and i'll stop asking. i have an opinion that's different than yours and i'm just asking what you think.

for example, what was harris offering progressives as a candidate in 2024 as a reason for them to show up and vote? if there's not a good answer to that question, then you can't really call them fickle imo

Are we perhaps using different definitions of "fickle"? I am calling them fickle because they stay home if they do not get 100% of what they want on a single issue, like Gaza. This effectively allows the candidate who wants to do the exact opposite of what they claim to want to win.

If a voter says "Harris is only giving me 60% of what I want so instead I will let the person who gives me 0% take power," that is the definition of a fickle voter. It is not about Harris being a perfect candidate. It is about the fact that many other voting blocs (like the GOP base) show up even when they dislike their candidate because they understand that power is about direction rather than perfection. When progressives treat voting like a Valentine they have to be romanced into instead of a strategic chess move, they become an unreliable and therefore fickle part of a winning coalition.

To answer what Harris offered progressives, how about restoring Roe v Wade, expanding Child Tax Credits, a federal ban on corporate price gouging, and a down payment assistance program for first time homebuyers? She was also part of the administration that passed the largest climate change investment in history. If those are not enough of a reason to show up and prevent the opposition from taking power, then fickle is a very polite way to describe that strategy.

 

[wareyin]

Then why were democrats and their donors still backing him? And don't pretend he still isn't involved in the party. Party leaders should have come out and denounced him.

"Democrats" weren't backing him.

they do have some power. Especially within their own ranks. They could perform an actual filibuster instead of letting Corny Booker get all this hype and do absolutely nothing with it. They could hold the line against Republicans and let the shutdown keep going. They could maybe no vote for the worst parts of Trump's agenda. They could refuse to confirm any Trump appointees and let the GOP own the whole thing. They could spend less time shanking up and coming members of their party than they do fighting republicans. They could have refused to give Cuellar back any of his committee assignments.

That's the power to block, not to enact. Genius progressives that told everyone not to vote Dem made sure that MAGA has the power to enact.

Yes, when you ignore your base, you lose.

How have progressives won here? When will you realize that you lost too?

If leadership took their thumbs off the scale, they probably would be

Leadership doesn't have their thumb on the scale.

Kirsten Gillibrand. The "mask off racism with no consequences" was a direct reference to Democratic Senator Kirsten Gillibrand.

Mine was a reference to.. (gestures at the whole ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ country)

Gee, if only the Democrats had some sort of leverage to fight that.

Right? Instead, genius progressives helped give that power to MAGA.

That Democrats vote to fund

A handful of centrists, because genius progressives helped give the majority to MAGA.

that Democrats vote to confirm

A handful of centrists, because genius progressives helped give the majority to MAGA.

Huh, maybe the party that says they could have prevented this should have done more to get their voting base out instead of pandering to people who sit them down, look directly in their eyes, scream "I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR YOUR COMMIE ASSES!", and proceed to spit in their face.

I'm seeing a bunch of spittle coming from someone claiming to be part of their voting base, so ...

 

[Donal]

"Democrats" weren't backing him.

The hell they weren't

ANDREW CUOMO (Democrat running as an independent candidate)

Elected officials: *Mayor Eric Adams, *Rep. Tom Suozzi, state Sen.* Sam Sutton, Assembly Members *David Weprin, *Yudelka Tapia and *Latrice Walker City Council Member $Inna Vernikov (after initially backing Sliwa)

Labor: IBEW Local 3, Teamsters Local 237, Teamsters Joint Council 16, Amalgamated Transit Union Local 726 and ATU NY State Legislative Conference Board, New York City Deputy Sheriffs’ Benevolent Association, New York City Coalition of the International Union of Operating Engineers

Organizations: Crown Heights United PAC, Asian Wave Alliance, PLACE NYC

Others: President Donald Trump, former Gov. *David Paterson, former Mayor *Mike Bloomberg, @ Jim Walden, Elisha Wiesel, the Staten Island Advance, former Rep. George Santos, former New York Attorney General* Robert Abrams, the Daily News editorial board, the New York Sun editorial board, Elon Musk

And that doesn't include the ones who backed him in the primary and didn't then switch to Mamdani for the general
* = current or former Democratic elected officials
$= she switched from Dem to Rep
@= is a douchebag who doesn't seem to have any actual Democratic policies despite constantly running as a Democrat

That's the power to block, not to enact.

Ya, its power they don't have the spine to wield.

Genius progressives that told everyone not to vote Dem made sure that MAGA has the power to enact.

You sure it wasn't those "sensible Republicans"?

How have progressives won here? When will you realize that you lost too?

No ◊◊◊◊. that's why we're pissed. We realized running a campaign for the 1990s wasn't going to win, but got told to shut up and get in line.

Leadership doesn't have their thumb on the scale.

Except when they change the rules and threaten to black list any vendors or consultants who work with any candidate who primaries their chosen candidates.

Mine was a reference to.. (gestures at the whole ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ country)

Guess someone should have done a better job of listening to their base

Right? Instead, genius progressives helped give that power to MAGA.

Seems like the people who lost to Trump 2/3 times and needed a global ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ pandemic to beat him that other time are the problem

A handful of centrists, because genius progressives helped give the majority to MAGA.

A handful of centrists that keep getting choice committees and never face any consequences for their defection.

A handful of centrists, because genius progressives helped give the majority to MAGA.

No, all of them. Rubio was confirmed 99-0. And what is the goddamned point of democratic leadership if they can't keep their people in line for the important stuff?

I'm seeing a bunch of spittle coming from someone claiming to be part of their voting base, so ...

If that were true, you'd be begging me to tell you how you can get my vote. Should I write up a list of marginalized groups I don't like? Give you some "others" to sacrifice for a vote you'll never get?

 

[wareyin]

The hell they weren't


And that doesn't include the ones who backed him in the primary and didn't then switch to Mamdani for the general
* = current or former Democratic elected officials
$= she switched from Dem to Rep
@= is a douchebag who doesn't seem to have any actual Democratic policies despite constantly running as a Democrat

Yeah, your link proves that the VAST majority of actual Dems were NOT backing Cuomo, but because a handful of guys like Eric ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Adams backed him, you're claiming that "the Democrats" as a party backed him. That's not even remotely close to being accurate.

<snipped the rest of your anti-Democrat rant because I'm not going to play this stupid "break every single response down word by word and respond to each word individually> game

You are doing a good job of demonstrating the fickleness of progressive voters to anyone still questioning that. Thanks.

 

[Donal]

Yeah, your link proves that the VAST majority of actual Dems were NOT backing Cuomo, but because a handful of guys like Eric ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Adams backed him, you're claiming that "the Democrats" as a party backed him. That's not even remotely close to being accurate.

I didn't say the Democrats as a party. I was referring to specific prominent Democrats who still have large influence with the party.

You are doing a good job of demonstrating the fickleness of progressive voters to anyone still questioning that. Thanks.

You mean principles? Is that the problem?

 

[wareyin]

I didn't say the Democrats as a party. I was referring to specific prominent Democrats who still have large influence with the party.

You mean principles? Is that the problem?

Eric ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Adams does not have large influence within the party. Republican City Councilwoman Inna Vernikov does not have large influence with the Democratic Party. Jesus, your list is all people who left the party, people who were excommunicated from the party, or small time local politicians with zero party influence.

And sure, your "principles" which helped give us Trump. Why could they ever be considered a problem? Trump is giving you all of the things you want, right?

 

[Donal]

So the fact that I did vote for Harris doesn't matter. You need performance over action. No wonder you are content with the current party.

 

[wareyin]

So the fact that I did vote for Harris doesn't matter. You need performance over action. No wonder you are content with the current party.

Your claim to have voted for Harris doesn't matter, no. Not when it is not verifiable, nor when you spend all of your energy telling people why they should not vote for the Democrats. Frankly, if every online progressive who spends all of their energy attacking the Dems but claims to have voted for Harris anyway actually had, she'd be President right now.

 

[Donal]

Eric ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Adams does not have large influence within the party. Republican City Councilwoman Inna Vernikov does not have large influence with the Democratic Party. Jesus, your list is all people who left the party, people who were excommunicated from the party, or small time local politicians with zero party influence.

And sure, your "principles" which helped give us Trump. Why could they ever be considered a problem? Trump is giving you all of the things you want, right?

TIL Mike Bloomberg has no influence in the Democratic Party, along with other former mayors and governors.

I'm old enough to remember centrists busting a blood vessel because Sanders didn't publicly kneel before Clinton and kiss her ring. He instead selfishly...traveled to the Midwest states she ignored until the end and held rallies for her.