What did Democrats do wrong?

[Emily's Cat]

So point out the vandalism.

And charge people who have been breaking the law.

It doesn't excuse the clear overreach, and violation of due process and abuse both non citizens and citizens.

I haven't suggested that it excuses overreach. I will, however, point out that law enforcement in Minneapolis is NOT PURSUING any kind of charges for vandalism or property damage.

Are you pretending that there hasn't been any?

 

[W.D.Clinger]

As evidenced by there being no change at all in EU and UK expenditures for their country defenses, and to defend Ukraine, when Trump *said* they were going to stop footing the bill against Russia?

I'd have thought the 62.8% rise in EU defense expenditures between 2020 and 2025 should count as a change in EU defense expenditures, but I do not have a graduate degree in MAGA math.

 

[bruto]

I'd have thought the 62.8% rise in EU defense expenditures between 2020 and 2025 should count as a change in EU defense expenditures, but I do not have a graduate degree in MAGA math.

But the leader who says magnets don't work when they're wet and windmills don't work when it's cold, and counts percentages in the thousands might disagree. I mean, you need to listen to both sides!

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Dems willing to keep funding Trump's death squads for vague promises of more considerate terrorizing of migrants and citizens.

 

[Segnosaur]

Dems willing to keep funding Trump's death squads for vague promises of more considerate terrorizing of migrants and citizens.

Its a little more complex than that.

Trump strikes deal with Democrats in government shutdown funding fight

The agreement includes advancing five spending bills and funding the Department of Homeland Security for two weeks as lawmakers negotiate changes to DHS and ICE.

www.nbcnews.com

President Donald Trump and Senate Democrats struck a deal Thursday to avert a prolonged shutdown for most of the federal government...
The agreement would fund all of the government except for the Department of Homeland Security through September. DHS would operate on a two-week stopgap bill...

In theory, it could be a good thing... it allows funding for Trump's gestapo to be separated from government services that, you know, people actually use/need (Things like the pentagon, transportation, education, etc.). And, if the Democrats play hardball (yeah, I understand your skepticism on this), they could even kill off DHS/ICE funding without it affecting the rest of the government.

The alternative would have been to do a complete government shutdown, which might give some posters here wet dreams, but those sorts of things do create a lot of collateral damage. (Regular government workers caught in the cross fire who see their lives upended, people with a critical need for certain government services, etc.)

 

[Pixel42]

I haven't suggested that it excuses overreach. I will, however, point out that law enforcement in Minneapolis is NOT PURSUING any kind of charges for vandalism or property damage.

Are you pretending that there hasn't been any?

AFAICS protesters in Minneapolis have been mostly careful to stay within the law. They obviously don't want to give the armed masked thugs terrorising their neighbourhoods, nor the administration which sent them, any excuse to escalate. But yes, I'd be surprised if tempers haven't frayed enough for a few such charges to be legitimately brought, and am puzzled as to why they haven't been.

For example there is a video going round which seems to show a protester kicking and breaking the tail light of an unmarked vehicle carrying masked, armed, unidentified people. Assuming they're law enforcement officers, definitely grounds for arrest on such charges you might think. The vehicle stops and they get out, but they make no attempt to arrest the offending protester. Instead they pile onto him, kicking and beating him down onto the ground. (By an amazing coincidence it's the same protester who will later be shot dead after again being kicked and beaten down onto the ground for going to the aid of a woman being similarly treated).

So do please explain to me why law enforcement are not pursuing any kind of charges for vandalism or property damage, but are instead apparently responding to it with yet more violence.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I'd have thought the 62.8% rise in EU defense expenditures between 2020 and 2025 should count as a change in EU defense expenditures, but I do not have a graduate degree in MAGA math.

It depends how you calculate it, do it one way and it's a 62.8% increase, use Deranged Narcissist with Dementia Maths and it's a reduction of 1386%^i.

 

[bruto]

I think it's interesting that it has gone this way this time. In the last shutdown, the Republicans were all in for blaming the Democrats for it all, but aside from health care being a different issue, I don't think it worked that well in the end. People are less likely to pay attention to the likely storm of anti-DHS rhetoric and testimony if it's over a limited bill than over the shutdown of the government.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

No one's going to pay attention to anything. ICE is not going to change their behavior because they're still funded, and even if they weren't they'd do it for free. Schumer will lower his glasses by a centimeter, DHS will pinkie promise to stop doing the things we all know they're going to keep doing, and the Democrats will fund DHS anyway because there's nothing to be gained by holding out.

Democratic leverage was in holding whole damned government hostage until their demands were met, and they've already folded on that. Yet again.

 

[bruto]

No one's going to pay attention to anything. ICE is not going to change their behavior because they're still funded, and even if they weren't they'd do it for free. Schumer will lower his glasses by a centimeter, DHS will pinkie promise to stop doing the things we all know they're going to keep doing, and the Democrats will fund DHS anyway because there's nothing to be gained by holding out.

Democratic leverage was in holding whole damned government hostage until their demands were met, and they've already folded on that. Yet again.

I can see that point, but it depends on what you realistically predict the outcome to be, because you get little from prolonging a battle if you cannot end up winning it.

 

[Segnosaur]

No one's going to pay attention to anything. ICE is not going to change their behavior because they're still funded...

As I pointed out, DHS/ICE funding has only been extended for 2 weeks.

and even if they weren't they'd do it for free.

But how are ICE agents going to afford to send their kids to Hitler youth camp if they are working for free?

Yeah, I am sure they would gladly shoot minorities in the back even if they weren't getting paid, but they still need the income.

Schumer will lower his glasses by a centimeter, DHS will pinkie promise to stop doing the things we all know they're going to keep doing, and the Democrats will fund DHS anyway because there's nothing to be gained by holding out.

While some skepticism is warranted, perhaps you might want to wait to see what actually happens?

Democratic leverage was in holding whole damned government hostage until their demands were met, and they've already folded on that. Yet again.

First of all, I see you've ignored the whole "collateral damage" thing. Its easy to be the brave soldier standing up to the republicans when you aren't the one who risks losing your home, or going hungry, as might happen in a prolonged government shutdown.

Plus, its only "leverage" if you are threatening to do something that will harm your opponent, and its possible that the republicans don't even care if the government gets shutdown, because they want government to fail anyways. So your leverage over the shutdown is less "stop or I will shoot your pet dog (which most people would not like)", and more like "stop or I will make you have sex with this really attractive person (which most people will like)".

Carving out DHS/ICE funding from the rest of the budget limits collateral damage, and gives the opportunity to exert more pressure (or even totally disband ICE).

 

[johnny karate]

Please, please, please, keep doing this.

Winning elections? Well, Republicans are making it easier with their overt fascism and rank incompetence.

"Encounters at the border" does not equate with "open border" by definition.

It's just amazing how quickly and easily people can be programed to shout the slogans when certain political interests command it.

A right winger alleging a conspiracy theory. Shocking.

Tom Homan received an award from Obama for having done such a great job a deportations in 2015. No "abolish ICE" then.

Yes, people didn't have a problem with ICE until they were deployed into American cities to terrorize and murder the local population. Very astute observation.

 

[johnny karate]

No. There's not. But if you interfere with law enforcement you greatly heighten the chances that something bad happens.

Voter for the pardoning of hundreds of cop-assaulting criminals wants everyone to know they think it's bad to interfere with law enforcement.

 

[johnny karate]

So every Democrat everywhere should make campaign videos about how much they support trans rights, because what works in New York City clearly will work everywhere else in the country. If I was still a Republican I'd agree with you whole-heartedly.

Yes, now the back-pedaling begins. You post the rantings of some conservative that are demonstrably not based in fact (a point you of course continue to side-step) and who claimed to be speaking to what all Americans thought and felt, and now suddenly it's "Well, New York doesn't count".

It's cute to see liberals resorting to ageism; can't help wondering what you'd call him if he was Black.

The weakest of weak sauce. The desperation is palpable.

 

[Trausti]

"Encounters at the border" does not equate with "open border" by definition.

Well, that's good to know. So all mass waves of illegals didn't actually happen and the people ICE is picking up and deporting don't actually exist.

A right winger alleging a conspiracy theory. Shocking.

Oh, please. Be more creative when you don't actually have a rebuttal.

Yes, people didn't have a problem with ICE until they were deployed into American cities to terrorize and murder the local population. Very astute observation.

You don't have any care about releasing foreign murders and rapists into American communities. But when ICE arrests and deports them, then you get upset. Sheesh.

 

[Trausti]

Voter for the pardoning of hundreds of cop-assaulting criminals wants everyone to know they think it's bad to interfere with law enforcement.

I can't wrap my mind around how someone would purposely want to interfere with law enforcement removing foreign rapists and murders from the community. Like, that's what bothers you?

 

[johnny karate]

Well, that's good to know. So all mass waves of illegals didn't actually happen and the people ICE is picking up and deporting don't actually exist.

No one claimed there weren't any illegal immigrants. The claim you're trying to defend is that there was ever a policy of "open borders", and you're not doing a very good job of it.

Oh, please. Be more creative when you don't actually have a rebuttal.

What is there to rebut? You claimed that the reason ICE is so unpopular is because people have been "programmed" to think that way. That's just delusional, red-pilled nonsense.

You don't have any care about releasing foreign murders and rapists into American communities. But when ICE arrests and deports them, then you get upset. Sheesh.

The only thing more hilarious than your desperately weird lies about me supporting criminality is that you are on record supporting criminality.

Trump explicitly campaigned on pardoning hundreds of violent criminals - one of whom went on to sexually abuse a child with the newfound freedom you helped grant him - and you proudly voted for that.

All you have to throw back at me are lies and delusions.

It's is laughable that any Trump voter thinks they have credibility on this issue.

 

[Trausti]

No one claimed there weren't any illegal immigrants. The claim you're trying to defend is that there was ever a policy of "open borders", and you're not doing a very good job of it.

Oh, that's brilliant. Though the Biden essentially opened the border and let everyone cross, it's not "open borders" because it wasn't officially called that. Genius!

What is there to rebut? You claimed that the reason ICE is so unpopular is because they've been "programmed" to think that way. That;s just delusional, red-pilled nonsense.

Yes, I would say that. Whatever the Democrat party say is the outrage of the day, it's brown shirts will go off an protest it.

The only thing more hilarious than your desperately weird lies about me supporting criminality is that you are on record supporting criminality.

So you support arresting and deporting foreign criminals in the US - yes or no?

It's is laughable that any Trump voter thinks they have credibility on this issue.

It's laughable that anyone upset that foreign rapists and murders are being arrested and deported thinks themselves credible. Just don't understand why you have more concern for foreign criminals than the Americans they've harmed.

 

[johnny karate]

I can't wrap my mind around how someone would purposely want to interfere with law enforcement removing foreign rapists and murders from the community. Like, that's what bothers you?

Yeah, I'm not sure why you can't wrap your head around the delusion you manufactured either. But I tend not to spend too much time wondering why advocates of cop-assaulting criminals, anti-vaxxersim, and child sex trafficking rings think the way they do. I just assume they're deeply damaged people and try to think about less disgusting things.

 

[dirtywick]

https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/118692/documents/HMKP-119-JU00-20251118-SD001.pdf

https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convictions-73-no-convictions

i know i posted the stats earlier in the thread but i’ll do it again. most ice detainees have no criminal record, only 5% have violent records

List of people granted executive clemency in the second Trump presidency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

list of trump pardons so far. outside of the j6ers it’s mostly fraud and political corruption. unsurprising