What did Democrats do wrong?

[Ziggurat]

On the contrary: the premise is what the Democrats did wrong was be less appealing to the voters than Trump was, and you suggested Trump voters had multiple reasons for voting for Trump and another poster should investigate those. I merely helpfully pointed out that Trump voters are engaged in a fundamental denial of reality and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they're willing to deny reality on more important stuff as well.

As for being a tu quoque surely you realize that's not always a fallacy? If Eric Menendez calls Lyle a parricide does that mean Lyle's retort of "you, too" must necessarily be wrong?

And finally, as far as "dismissing concerns", what matters is the vote you make. If you voted for Trump despite concerns it means you dismissed those concerns in order to vote for him. Actions matter, claims about "oh, but I felt bad about it" don't. A vote is a vote is a vote, there was no space on the ballot for "share your feelings about your vote", was there?

You seem to be confused about what's being debated here. Let me see if I can dispel your confusion.

You made the claim that it makes no sense for voters to consider the trans issue when deciding to not vote for Harris. I disputed this. I think it does make sense. You tried to draw a parallel with Trump's legal problems. But I never took a position equivalent to yours in regards to Trump. I never said that it was irrational to consider Trump's legal problems. I'm sure plenty of voters DID consider that, and it's not irrational for that to be the deciding factor for a voter. I'm sure for some it was.

But so what? As as my exchange with Reformed Offlian should have hinted at, voters considering an issue doesn't mean that this issue alone will be determinative. I'm not claiming that the trans issue was determinative for all Trump voters. I'm confident that it wans't. But it probably tipped the scales for some, and that's not irrational. Just like it's not irrational that Trump's legal problems probably tipped the scales for some voters to vote for Harris.

Nothing you have said suggests otherwise. Which is why your tu quoque is, in fact, a fallacy.

 

[johnny karate]

I can imagine it, but I doubt many people do it (though some pretend to), and I think it's a bad idea to not have any reservations about a politician.

I suspect lots of people who voted for Trump did so with significant reservations. But they voted for him anyways because their reservations of Harris outweighed their reservations for Trump. Had Harris given them a few less things to be reserved about (for example, not advocating for paying for sex transition surgeries for illegal immigrants) they could easily have flipped their votes.

Yes, so many difficult choices this election cycle for Trump voters. On one hand, children dying of preventable disease is bad. But only the other hand, trans people really weird them out. Quite the dilemma.

 

[johnny karate]

You seem to be confused about what's being debated here. Let me see if I can dispel your confusion.

You made the claim that it makes no sense for voters to consider the trans issue when deciding to not vote for Harris. I disputed this. I think it does make sense. You tried to draw a parallel with Trump's legal problems. But I never took a position equivalent to yours in regards to Trump. I never said that it was irrational to consider Trump's legal problems. I'm sure plenty of voters DID consider that, and it's not irrational for that to be the deciding factor for a voter. I'm sure for some it was.

But so what? As as my exchange with Reformed Offlian should have hinted at, voters considering an issue doesn't mean that this issue alone will be determinative. I'm not claiming that the trans issue was determinative for all Trump voters. I'm confident that it wans't. But it probably tipped the scales for some, and that's not irrational. Just like it's not irrational that Trump's legal problems probably tipped the scales for some voters to vote for Harris.

Nothing you have said suggests otherwise. Which is why your tu quoque is, in fact, a fallacy.

Your continued insistence to assign rationality to people who voted for conspiracy theories and anti-vaxxerism is itself a denial of reality.

 

[ahhell]

So, what's the fix? 76 million Americans are racist morons and millions of Americans didn't vote because they are almost as bad. What's the fix, how do you get the good blameless politicians elected?

 

[johnny karate]

So, what's the fix? 76 million Americans are racist morons and millions of Americans didn't vote because they are almost as bad. What's the fix, how do you get the good blameless politicians elected?

You tell me. You self-indentify as a conservative who didn't vote for Trump. What did it take for you to vote against your own party? Because if anything, it's going to take more conservatives convincing other conservatives. None of these people are going to listen to anything liberals have to say.

Aside from that, based on the 2020 election cycle, the only that's going to peel off enough Trump voters is for them to experience the widespread chaos and misery he causes.

 

[Thermal]

So, what's the fix? 76 million Americans are racist morons and millions of Americans didn't vote because they are almost as bad. What's the fix, how do you get the good blameless politicians elected?

Dictator. Draw straws. Rock paper scissors. I mean, there's nothing to do. A person of middling intelligence can make an informed vote with ease, especially in the Internet age. A third can't be bothered. Roughly the other two thirds are split between the two existing parties. Any "fix" is worse than the existing problem.

Everyone wants other people to "see the light" and if only they would, all would be just like them and all would be right under heaven. That's great. Just give me the keys and I'll pick. I'm good at it. Trust me.

 

[Random]

So, what's the fix? 76 million Americans are racist morons and millions of Americans didn't vote because they are almost as bad. What's the fix, how do you get the good blameless politicians elected?

Create a left-wing media sphere beyond the internet. Spend some big money on a left-wing, FOX-like news channel, and bring back Air America or something similar at a minimum. Encourage big name Dems to go on them to help give them legitimacy.

MSNBC is not liberal, except by comparison the things like FOX and OAN.

 

[ahhell]

You tell me. You self-indentify as a conservative who didn't vote for Trump. What did it take for you to vote against your own party? Because if anything, it's going to take more conservatives convincing other conservatives. None of these people are going to listen to anything liberals have to say.

Aside from that, based on the 2020 election cycle, the only that's going to peel off enough Trump voters is for them to experience the widespread chaos and misery he causes.

Part of my fix is to get folks on the left to stop calling them all racist morons. I'm never going to get them to vote for the folks on the side of folks that clearly hate them.

That being said, the Dems can only control what the Dems do so what can the Dems do? Seems like you're saying, nothing.

ETA: There was also a noticeable decline in turnout for Harris over Biden. So, is that all, just racist morons? Its at least people the dems can get to voter for them but didn't this time, so there's nothing the Dems can do about that?

 

[Louden Wilde]

And a lot of voters take the trans issue as an indicator. It's an issue where the activists are in denial about what reality is, and are running roughshod over very legitimate concerns about the harm they are doing. You can claim that very few people are affected by the issue, but so what? If a politician is siding with activists engaged in such a fundamental denial of reality on this issue, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they're willing to deny reality on more important stuff as well. So you don't have to think the issue is important in and of itself to care about it. It's perfectly logical to interpret it as an indicator of broader propensities.

This - the trans issue is seen as an avatar of the left going off the rails (along with other identity politics, suggestions by some that every action is racist or anti-racist, and oppression hierarchies, etc).

NYT has an article on congressman Seth Moulton speaking up (for keeping sports single-sex) - in it, they note:

About two-thirds of Americans say transgender athletes should be allowed to play only on teams that match their sex at birth, according to a Gallup poll conducted last year.


The Washington Post has an editorial with a similar slant - some text:

Trans people deserve to be treated with dignity, and the law should protect them from discrimination in areas such as employment and housing. But the realities of human biology raise legitimate questions about any notion that trans women should always and everywhere be treated exactly like cisgender women.
....
Though the battle over trans inclusion is frequently compared to the same-sex marriage debate, there are two key differences: Society had a long and robust debate over marriage equality, and there was no reasonable doubt about the merits. Same-sex marriage was already winning the debate by the time the Supreme Court decided Obergefell v. Hodges in 2015, making it legal across the country

Meanwhile John Oliver says Harris should have run on the issue

It's just such an obvious place where the right can point to the left not "following the science"/reality. Again, it makes harder to convince those folks that climate change is real when you tout Rachel Levine as the " first female four-star Admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service"

Harris should have made a statement like that in the WaPO editorial - she was saddled with the Biden admin's clearly prioritizing gender identity over biological sex.

ETA - she didn't have much time for things like this, but I think her saying she wouldn't do anything different from Biden was a big mistake. She could have said that she would have gotten to the border issues sooner, that there are cases where "biological" sex matter more than gender ID, etc. People likely attached all the real and/or perceived excesses of the left over the last 4 years to her.

 

[Olmstead]

Part of my fix is to get folks on the left to stop calling them all racist morons. I'm never going to get them to vote for the folks on the side of folks that clearly hate them.

Dishonest manipulation it is.

 

[ahhell]

Dishonest manipulation it is.

Yep, that it, asking someone to stop insulting others, that's dishonest, you tell everyone you meet exactly what you think of them all the time? Those pants make you look fat! Bob, WTF happened to you face?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Yep, that it, asking someone to stop insulting others, that's dishonest, you tell everyone you meet exactly what you think of them all the time? Those pants make you look fat! Bob, WTF happened to you face?

"That 'Make America White Again' hat looks great on you!"

 

[johnny karate]

Part of my fix is to get folks on the left to stop calling them all racist morons. I'm never going to get them to vote for the folks on the side of folks that clearly hate them.

That being said, the Dems can only control what the Dems do so what can the Dems do? Seems like you're saying, nothing.

ETA: There was also a noticeable decline in turnout for Harris over Biden. So, is that all, just racist morons? Its at least people the dems can get to voter for them but didn't this time, so there's nothing the Dems can do about that?

I'll make a deal with you: I will personally stop calling them racist morons when they stop voting like racists morons. You don't get to vote for the "They're eating the pets" anti-vax guy and then get indignant when people make the obvious observation about that choice.

And then of course there's the inconvenient fact that conservatives don't have the most complimentary things to say about liberals, but liberals don't vote for Burn It All Down candidates out of spite.

The grim reality is that we might be doomed a society if we're going to turn the clock back 70 years on medical science and let children start dying from polio again because conservatives think liberals are big ol' meanies.

 

[johnny karate]

Yep, that it, asking someone to stop insulting others, that's dishonest, you tell everyone you meet exactly what you think of them all the time? Those pants make you look fat! Bob, WTF happened to you face?

They voted for a candidate for whom insulting people is pretty much his whole identity, so spare me the crocodile tears.

This just brings us back to the glaring flaw underlying the premise of this thread: If we're going to lie to ourselves about what Trump voters actually voted for, then we can't begin to figure how to get them to not vote for that.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The more horrible things Trump does, the more people have to justify to themselves that, somehow, they still did nothing wrong in voting for him.

 

[johnny karate]

It's just such an obvious place where the right can point to the left not "following the science"/reality.

<anti-trans nonsense snipped>

And then they immediately voted for an anti-vaxxer to be put in charge of public health. There is nothing about Trump voters that indicates they follow science or reality.

 

[Olmstead]

Yep, that it, asking someone to stop insulting others, that's dishonest, you tell everyone you meet exactly what you think of them all the time? Those pants make you look fat! Bob, WTF happened to you face?

At some point, when I explain to people that a criminal conman won't solve their economic issues just because he says he will, and that the data doesn't back it up either, the concept of "stupid choices" will come up. I guess I can just keep quoting data like a cyborg.

I do find it a bit jarring that "insults" are painted as the Left's great transgression. I guess it makes some sense on this particular forum, but I don't think the real world backs that up.

 

[Thermal]

"I vote for traditional family values, not all this hippy trans gender and abortion stuff"

"You voted for a rapist who advocates and brags about sexual assaults and cheated on his multiple wives and paid hush money to a porn stsr who only banged him because she wanted a meal and was a frequent flyer with Jeffrey Epstein and ..."

"No, you're just not understanding"

 

[Olmstead]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but ever since Clinton's "deplorables" debacle, mainstream left-wing politicians have essentially been treating every type of voter with kid gloves. And that despite the fact that Trump has gotten worse, not better.

I guess they could ask Democrat voters to be nice to the other children, but that sounds a bit weird.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

more importantly, Democrats have accepted that they have to take the issues brought by the Republicans seriously instead of treating them as the obvious trolling that they are.