What did Democrats do wrong?

[johnny karate]

It's additional evidence that Dems are beginning to slowly back away from the gender identity movement

I hope this victory will bring Trump voters comfort when their children start dying of rubella.

 

[Thermal]

It's additional evidence that Dems are beginning to slowly back away from the gender identity movement

Well, yeah. The Reps backed away from rape caravans too. They were trendy for a hot minute, then on to the next trendy outrage/sympathy.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Harris didn't run on gender ideology. Never even mentioned it. So no, those issues didn't play a part. At least not to people who aren't constantly inundated with Fox News propaganda telling them otherwise.

She didn't bring it up because Dems are realizing it's toxic with significant parts of the electorate, not based in science/reality, and many find aspects of the movement regressive, misogynistic, and homophobic. I don't watch Fox News & it's not just right-wingers (e.g. check Martina Navratilova's X feed over the last few years).

 

[mumblethrax]

There are several in the trans-thread, including this + recent link by puppy cow to a Sam Harris commentary - among others.

This is poor quality evidence, because of course "cultural issues like transgender issues" is significantly broader than just transgender issues.

When polled specifically on even controversial policies, Americans generally show little interest.

When men beat up transwomen it often seems to be homophobia (drunken guy has encounter w/ what he thinks is a female, finds out it's a male).

Ok, but I wasn't talking about men beating up transwomen. I was talking about men sexually assaulting transwomen. It's implausible that perception is not involved here.

Agree the Harris campaign did not run on "wokeness", including this issue - which strengthens the argument that they knew it was toxic

I don't think it does. I think it just indicates that Harris generally ran to the center.

Again, I don't think this is the only, or major reason why dems lost, but I think it played a role. Dems have a lot of ground to make up after decisively losing to a truly awful candidate.

So it's going to be important to know whether retooling on trans issues even helps to make up lost ground, which is why I think we need good answers here, rather than vibes.

 

[TragicMonkey]

So it's going to be important to know whether retooling on trans issues even helps to make up lost ground, which is why I think we need good answers here, rather than vibes.

Lesson 1: don't ask monomaniacs if the focus of their monomania is an important factor.

 

[Olmstead]

She didn't bring it up because Dems are realizing it's toxic with significant parts of the electorate, not based in science/reality, and many find aspects of the movement regressive, misogynistic, and homophobic. I don't watch Fox News & it's not just right-wingers (e.g. check Martina Navratilova's X feed over the last few years).

Thankfully the party of science, progress, equality between sexes, and non-homophobia has stepped in to solve the issue. Oh, wait.

The idea that conservatives are somehow the reasonable ones when it comes to gender ideology is laughable. Their endgame isn't some paradise of tolerance based on science, with free therapy and anti-discrimination laws to protect socially divergent people. It's a ramping up of conservative conceptions of sexes, discrimination, and insidious bullying.

 

[Donal]

I don't think I said any of that.

But it is what happened

What "con" do you think I fell for?

The "Dems ran on trans issues" con. What part are you having trouble with.

If you want to discuss the trans stuff in detail , do it here.

Ya, you should tuck tail and run. Too bad we're talking about in cotnext of the campaigns.

It's not a moral panic thread.

Yes, it is.

The gender ideology stuff potentially affects a lot of folks - girls & women (with regard to single-sex spaces), parents (there has been a huge surge in trans-IDing kids).

Again, moral panic nonsense. Go take it to the other thread.

this is about the campaigning. The Dems did not campaign on trans issues.

There's a reason the Harris campaign didn't play it up, and the Trump campaign did.

Because he knew he didn't have a real plan and needed to fear monger and scapegoat someone?

Stop being a mark.

 

[ahhell]

Yes, the last thing America wants is a candidate who can't admit when they're wrong. That's why they voted for the candidate known for his self-reflection and humbleness. Just absolute topnotch political analysis in this thread.

You aren't wrong about that. I do think, it might have helped her a bit though.

 

[johnny karate]

She didn't bring it up because Dems are realizing it's toxic with significant parts of the electorate, not based in science/reality, and many find aspects of the movement regressive, misogynistic, and homophobic. I don't watch Fox News & it's not just right-wingers (e.g. check Martina Navratilova's X feed over the last few years).

Yes, if there's one thing the people want who just voted to have an anti-vaxxer put in charge of public health, it's science and reality.

I have no idea why you keep pushing this fantasy version of the Trump campaign when we all saw the actual thing.

 

[johnny karate]

You aren't wrong about that. I do think, it might have helped her a bit though.

It might have helped Harris to admit she was wrong in an election won by a guy who famously never admits he's wrong is a nonsensical take.

 

[ahhell]

It might have helped Harris to admit she was wrong in an election won by a guy who famously never admits he's wrong is a nonsensical take.

Turnout, lots of folks that would never vote for trump might have stayed home on account of stuff like that. Lake the gender stuff, I don't think it had all that much impact but probably some. I still think her major issue was Biden and her not being very good at being a politician.

I voted for her but, I didn't like her inability to explain why she changed her mind or her inability to say way she would be different from Biden. I can see how someone who was borderline about voting at all, might find that reason enough to not vote.

As I've said, they didn't do just one thing wrong, they did a lot of little things. I'd complain about what trump did wrong but I don't care about that. I don't want his sort to win elections. I want his opposition to win elections.

 

[johnny karate]

Turnout, lots of folks that would never vote for trump might have stayed home on account of stuff like that. Lake the gender stuff, I don't think it had all that much impact but probably some. I still think her major issue was Biden and her not being very good at being a politician.

I voted for her but, I didn't like her inability to explain why she changed her mind or her inability to say way she would be different from Biden. I can see how someone who was borderline about voting at all, might find that reason enough to not vote.

As I've said, they didn't do just one thing wrong, they did a lot of little things. I'd complain about what trump did wrong but I don't care about that. I don't want his sort to win elections. I want his opposition to win elections.

Anyone who looked at these two candidates and decided to sit out the election because Harris was a little too uppity for their taste deserves every bit of chaos and misery that's coming their way. Everything else is just window dressing to distract from the cold, hard reality that tens of millions of people in America actively want that chaos and misery.

 

[dirtywick]

there's too many times where a harris mistake that cost her the election is something trump is doing but cranked up to 11. i can think of a few reasons why there's a double standard and you could have that debate, but does anyone not think the double standard exists? she was fighting a huge uphill battle for a lot of reasons that were completely out of her control imo

and yeah, the dems suck, biden knee capped her, maybe she shouldn't have been the nominee or even vp at all, and she wasn't good enough to get it done. all things that are true. but she also had to work twice as hard and no room for error, while this other guy can just poop his pants in court.

 

[ahhell]

Anyone who looked at these two candidates and decided to sit out the election because Harris was a little too uppity for their taste deserves every bit of chaos and misery that's coming their way. Everything else is just window dressing to distract from the cold, hard reality that tens of millions of people in America actively want that chaos and misery.

That's another major thing Dems are doing wrong. If you didn't vote for us, its because you suck is not a way to win elections.

 

[Louden Wilde]

This is poor quality evidence, because of course "cultural issues like transgender issues" is significantly broader than just transgender issues.

When polled specifically on even controversial policies, Americans generally show little interest.


Ok, but I wasn't talking about men beating up transwomen. I was talking about men sexually assaulting transwomen. It's implausible that perception is not involved here.


I don't think it does. I think it just indicates that Harris generally ran to the center.


So it's going to be important to know whether retooling on trans issues even helps to make up lost ground, which is why I think we need good answers here, rather than vibes.

It will be hard for many Dems to admit to they may have been wrong on this issue. & it's pretty damning for that wing of the party - they were dramatically wrong on the evidence/logic. Again, there's a reason that her campaign backed away from the issue, that the Rs brought it up repeatedly and that some Dems are now starting to back away. When you point to Admiral Levine and say this is the first female in the role, that Lia Thomas has always been a woman ("transwomen are women") and should compete against other women, that sex is a spectrum or invention of the patriarchy (Chase Strangio, prominent ACLU lawyer said this) , that lesbians are transphobic if they won't date transwomen and other false/dubious statements - these don't go over well with a lot of folks. Many Dems/left-leaning people have tried to speak up over the last half-decade, but have gotten shouted down for questioning any aspect of this ideology.

Yes, men occasionally sexually assault transwomen, as well as other non-trans-identifying men. In some cultures it's not considered gay if you're the "top" or dominant one. They know there's a key difference - and TW are not going to be the ones that other males want as long term partners. But if you want to make that argument long form, please do it in the other thread. If you want to argue that sex is a spectrum, please respond to me here - this stuff has more broadly impacted public trust in science and the notion that Dems are always right on science (calling anyone racist who questioned whether Sars CoV2 came from the nearby lab didn't help there either).

 

[johnny karate]

That's another major thing Dems are doing wrong. If you didn't vote for us, its because you suck is not a way to win elections.

A) I'm not a a candidate trying to win an election.

B) Make an argument that voting to put an anti-vaxxer in charge of public health doesn't suck. I dare you.

 

[johnny karate]

It will be hard for many Dems to admit to they may have been wrong on this issue. & it's pretty damning for that wing of the party - they were dramatically wrong on the evidence/logic. Again, there's a reason that her campaign backed away from the issue, that the Rs brought it up repeatedly and that some Dems are now starting to back away. When you point to Admiral Levine and say this is the first female in the role, that Lia Thomas has always been a woman ("transwomen are women") and should compete against other women, that sex is a spectrum or invention of the patriarchy (Chase Strangio, prominent ACLU lawyer said this) , that lesbians are transphobic if they won't date transwomen and other false/dubious statements - these don't go over well with a lot of folks. Many Dems/left-leaning people have tried to speak up over the last half-decade, but have gotten shouted down for questioning any aspect of this ideology.

Yes, men occasionally sexually assault transwomen, as well as other non-trans-identifying men. In some cultures it's not considered gay if you're the "top" or dominant one. They know there's a key difference - and TW are not going to be the ones that other males want as long term partners. But if you want to make that argument long form, please do it in the other thread. If you want to argue that sex is a spectrum, please respond to me here - this stuff has more broadly impacted public trust in science and the notion that Dems are always right on science (calling anyone racist who questioned whether Sars CoV2 came from the nearby lab didn't help there either).

You continue to assign a grasp of evidence and logic to the party that embraces conspiracy theories and anti-vaxxerism.

Why do you perpetuate this obvious lie?

 

[Louden Wilde]

Lesson 1: don't ask monomaniacs if the focus of their monomania is an important factor.

I brought up social issues - including other identity as well. But this one is quite a gift to Rs for the reasons I've gone into in the other posts here. I do think some of the DEI stuff/infusing race stuff into so many things in recent years didn't help either. As I heard a pundit note the other day, telling some struggling rural guy barely making enough to live on that he's privileged because of the color of his skin is not the way to go if you want his vote. There's also the antisemitism and anti-Asian feelings on the left that may not have helped.

 

[Donal]

Again that wasn't the Democrats' position, it was the Republican attack. Stop carrying water for bigots and swindlers.

 

[Louden Wilde]

take your fear mongering to the other thread. This is for analysis of the Harris campaign. If you have evidence Harris "campaigned on trans issues" by all means, present it. Otherwise, you are derailing the thread.

1 - not fear mongering (& if you think it is, you should be willing to debate it in that thread). 2 - I've pointed to multiple (notable) folks who believe that this ideology hurt the Dems - that's exactly on point for the thread. 3- I think it's clear Harris did not campaign on trans-issues because her team realized it would hurt the campaign. 4 - I am a Dem and wanted them to win (though in recent years think that political parties, or at least an effective 2 party system are bad for the country). 5- there's plenty of reasons for the Dems losing- i think this also contributed (& doesn't help for future elections)