What did Democrats do wrong?

[johnny karate]

Messaging like this, and Democrats still can't figure out what they did wrong, to lose the popular vote.

Yes, obviously the electorate was offended by all the insulting things random people online were saying and decided to vote for the guy saying insulting things at his rallies every night because decorum and civility is very important to them.

Please share more of your keen political insights.

 

[Donal]

That is not an intelligent comment, let alone argument.

So, it was appropriate

On the contrary, they'll be thanking the out-of-touch left who don't cede on the more extreme positions (including the identity ideology) .

You mean the eprson who sees your "gender ideology" panic as a distraction from real issues?

Trump is a terrible person, businessman and candidate.

But he's your guy

This election should not have been close, let him alone winning. That alone suggests there may be multiple factors going on. You think social issues didn't play a part?

Yes, because people like you fell for the con. Same thing the right ahs been doing since schools were desegregated. They even use the same language.

Here's how it goes:

Dems: fund raising and trying to pass some legislation that helps the public while keeping their donors happy. Ocassionally try to address issues that affect you.

Trans/gay/black/muslim/jewish/any "other": exists. Maybe wants to be able to be themselves in public. Not really hurting anybody.

Republicans: OMG LOOK AT THOSE PEOPLE!!! DO YOU WANT THEM NEAR YOUR CHILDREN?!?!?! WE NEED TO PASS LAWS ABOUT THEM NOW!!!

Dems: umm, they aren't bothering anybody

Republicans: Look at how Dems are more worried about "those people" than they are about real issues!

People like you: Why aren't Dems worried about issues that affect me? Why are they talking about "those people"?

 

[johnny karate]

That is not an intelligent comment, let alone argument. On the contrary, they'll be thanking the out-of-touch left who don't cede on the more extreme positions (including the identity ideology) . Trump is a terrible person, businessman and candidate. This election should not have been close, let him alone winning. That alone suggests there may be multiple factors going on. You think social issues didn't play a part?

Harris didn't run on gender ideology. Never even mentioned it. So no, those issues didn't play a part. At least not to people who aren't constantly inundated with Fox News propaganda telling them otherwise.

 

[Ziggurat]

So the fact that Trump is a addle brained man child who regularly spouts racist nosnense works in his favor?

Almost everyone already had an opinion of Trump, this wasn't his public stage debut. Some view him as you do, some do not. But that's not the point. The point is his performance at the debate with Biden wasn't out of step with what he has always been like. It didn't violate expectations, it didn't provide new information. So it didn't change people's opinions of him.

I'm not sure why that's a hard concept to grasp, or in any way controversial.

 

[Ziggurat]

Harris didn't run on gender ideology. Never even mentioned it.

She has in the past (for example, trans surgeries for illegal immigrants in detention). And she never refuted those views. Plus, don't kid yourself, plenty of her allies are very much on the gender ideology bandwagon, and everyone knows it. She put no distance between herself and those views.

So no, those issues didn't play a part. At least not to people who aren't constantly inundated with Fox News propaganda telling them otherwise.

It played no part, except to the people for whom it mattered.

That's a pretty big caveat, and a funny way of saying it did play a part.

 

[ahhell]

Almost everyone already had an opinion of Trump, this wasn't his public stage debut. Some view him as you do, some do not. But that's not the point. The point is his performance at the debate with Biden wasn't out of step with what he has always been like. It didn't violate expectations, it didn't provide new information. So it didn't change people's opinions of him.

I'm not sure why that's a hard concept to grasp, or in any way controversial.

It did provide new information for some folks, my in laws were shocked by it. Not sure how but they were.

Harris didn't run on gender ideology. Never even mentioned it. So no, those issues didn't play a part. At least not to people who aren't constantly inundated with Fox News propaganda telling them otherwise.

She didn't but I still think it played a role, not because reps are rabid transphobes but because she had at least in the past stated whe was in favor of very unpopular ideas on account of morons at the ACLU asking her stupid questions. I don't really think it was the major issue but I think it played a role. Most folks aren't in favor of self ID, or transitioning minors, or paying for sex changes for prisoners on the government time. Even fewer of most minorities in the US.

 

[johnny karate]

She has in the past (for example, trans surgeries for illegal immigrants in detention). And she never refuted those views. Plus, don't kid yourself, plenty of her allies are very much on the gender ideology bandwagon, and everyone knows it. She put no distance between herself and those views.

That doesn't contradict what I said. And the idea that it will hinder their campaign if a candidate doesn't put daylight between themselves and their potentially damaging views is laughable. America just elected a racist conspiracy theorist who made no effort to hide the racism or the conspiracy theories.

It played no part, except to the people for whom it mattered.

That's a pretty big caveat, and a funny way of saying it did play a part.

Fair point. But the crux of my point is that if we're discussing what Democrats did wrong, the perceptions people have of them that are not rooted in reality do not belong in that discussion.

 

[I Am The Scum]

That is not an intelligent comment, let alone argument. On the contrary, they'll be thanking the out-of-touch left who don't cede on the more extreme positions (including the identity ideology) . Trump is a terrible person, businessman and candidate. This election should not have been close, let him alone winning. That alone suggests there may be multiple factors going on. You think social issues didn't play a part?

Gender ideology played (at best) a miniscule role in Democratic messaging this election. The idea that it is being pushed by Democrats is, in fact, a Republican lie, and you're helping them spread it.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Republicans made gender ideology an issue. Democrats rarely did and only to respond to nonsense that Republicans said.

 

[johnny karate]

She didn't but I still think it played a role, not because reps are rabid transphobes but because she had at least in the past stated whe was in favor of very unpopular ideas on account of morons at the ACLU asking her stupid questions. I don't really think it was the major issue but I think it played a role. Most folks aren't in favor of self ID, or transitioning minors, or paying for sex changes for prisoners on the government time. Even fewer of most minorities in the US.

Again, this has nothing to do with what Democrats did or didn't do wrong. Trans issues were not part of any Democratic platform or campaign that I saw. You're essentially saying that what Democrats did wrong was to not convince people to stop believing the propaganda they'd been fed from Republicans.

 

[johnny karate]

Gender ideology played (at best) a miniscule role in Democratic messaging this election. The idea that it is being pushed by Democrats is, in fact, a Republican lie, and you're helping them spread it.

Republicans made gender ideology an issue. Democrats rarely did and only to respond to nonsense that Republicans said.

Others things that Democrats did wrong: Not admit that the 2020 election was stolen and that vaccines are dangerous don't work.

 

[ahhell]

Again, this has nothing to do with what Democrats did or didn't do wrong. Trans issues were not part of any Democratic platform or campaign that I saw. You're essentially saying that what Democrats did wrong was to not convince people to stop believing the propaganda they'd been fed from Republicans.

That's fairly silly. In 2019, Harris said she was in favor of something that the majority of even democrats oppose and she did not disavow or otherwise distance herself from that. That isn't something the Reps made up they just reminded folks of it. It's not like Dems never remind folks of things Reps said decades ago. You could say that that's not a dem doing something wrong, I suppose. If you support an idea very few people agree with, it might be brave but it will loose you an election here or there.

To be clear, I really don't think it was that big a deal, just another example of how the Dem elites are no longer in touch with regular folk. Played no bigger part in the election that the racism of Latinx men.

 

[Louden Wilde]

I find this idea difficult to credit. Do you honestly believe that a man who sexually assaults a transwoman (and it does happen) has not committed a crime on the basis of social perception, rather than on the basis of physical reality? I recall talking with some co-workers about how differently women get treated in business meetings; one of them was trans and reported that there was palpable difference in how she was treated before and after transitioning. Someone could write that off as discomfort with transwomen, as distinct from women, but it's still a loss of social advantage that results from no longer being perceived of as sufficiently male.

I'd still like to see some good evidence that this cost Democrats votes, particularly since Harris hardly ran on a platform of wokeness. Downstream races do not paint a clear picture.

There are several in the trans-thread, including this + recent link by puppy cow to a Sam Harris commentary - among others. It's clear the republican strategists thought it played a role - they kept running the ads in the presidential election (& Ted Cruz had the boys in girls sports ad). When men beat up transwomen it often seems to be homophobia (drunken guy has encounter w/ what he thinks is a female, finds out it's a male). Yes, it's discomfort with transwomen.

One false premise in this movement is that attraction based on sex is a prejudice that can be overcome, rather than being hardwired. It's essentially neo-creationist. To put it another way, men broadly are never going to consider TW as a type of woman (not as long as we reproduce sexually, which is obligate within mammals).

Agree the Harris campaign did not run on "wokeness", including this issue - which strengthens the argument that they knew it was toxic - there are girls/women who want single-sex spaces and activities, it's become increasingly clear that there is little evidence it (transitioning) helps kids, etc. I think KH regretted that that gender affirming care for prisoners remark, but bringing it up would just have invited more scrutiny on the issue (which they clearly didn't want).

Again, I don't think this is the only, or major reason why dems lost, but I think it played a role. Dems have a lot of ground to make up after decisively losing to a truly awful candidate.

Apparently AOC has removed pronouns from her X/Twitter bio

 

[johnny karate]

That's fairly silly. In 2019, Harris said she was in favor of something that the majority of even democrats oppose and she did not disavow or otherwise distance herself from that. That isn't something the Reps made up they just reminded folks of it. It's not like Dems never remind folks of things Reps said decades ago. You could say that that's not a dem doing something wrong, I suppose. If you support an idea very few people agree with, it might be brave but it will loose you an election here or there.

I like how you sanewash how Republicans fear-mongered about trans issues and then call my argument silly, all while not actually refuting my point.

To be clear, I really don't think it was that big a deal, just another example of how the Dem elites are no longer in touch with regular folk. Played no bigger part in the election that the racism of Latinx men.

Yes, the “Dem elites” are so out of touch with *checks notes* election conspiracy theories and anti-vaxxerism. Hopefully they learn some lessons from this election and get back to real kitchen table issues that Americans care about like *checks notes* migrants eating pets.

 

[Thermal]

Apparently AOC has removed pronouns from her X/Twitter bio

In fairness, it appears she removed them in May.

 

[ahhell]

That does bring up a thing I think she did wrong, couldn't admit she was wrong about anything. Asked about thing that she appear to have changed her mind on, she answered with my values haven't changed. Ok, then why did you change your mind. Fracking is an easy one but nope, can just say, fracking for natural gas has lowered the US carbon footprint. She appears to have backed away from the identitarian stuff that was so common in 2020. Granted, I'm not sure she every cared about it all that much but she did and wouldn't even acknowledge that.

 

[Louden Wilde]

So, it was appropriate

You mean the eprson who sees your "gender ideology" panic as a distraction from real issues?

But he's your guy

Yes, because people like you fell for the con. Same thing the right ahs been doing since schools were desegregated. They even use the same language.

Here's how it goes:

Dems: fund raising and trying to pass some legislation that helps the public while keeping their donors happy. Ocassionally try to address issues that affect you.

Trans/gay/black/muslim/jewish/any "other": exists. Maybe wants to be able to be themselves in public. Not really hurting anybody.

Republicans: OMG LOOK AT THOSE PEOPLE!!! DO YOU WANT THEM NEAR YOUR CHILDREN?!?!?! WE NEED TO PASS LAWS ABOUT THEM NOW!!!

Dems: umm, they aren't bothering anybody

Republicans: Look at how Dems are more worried about "those people" than they are about real issues!

People like you: Why aren't Dems worried about issues that affect me? Why are they talking about "those people"?

I don't think I said any of that. What "con" do you think I fell for? If you want to discuss the trans stuff in detail , do it here. It's not a moral panic thread. The gender ideology stuff potentially affects a lot of folks - girls & women (with regard to single-sex spaces), parents (there has been a huge surge in trans-IDing kids). There's a reason the Harris campaign didn't play it up, and the Trump campaign did.

 

[Louden Wilde]

In fairness, it appears she removed them in May.

It's additional evidence that Dems are beginning to slowly back away from the gender identity movement

 

[johnny karate]

That does bring up a thing I think she did wrong, couldn't admit she was wrong about anything. Asked about thing that she appear to have changed her mind on, she answered with my values haven't changed. Ok, then why did you change your mind. Fracking is an easy one but nope, can just say, fracking for natural gas has lowered the US carbon footprint. She appears to have backed away from the identitarian stuff that was so common in 2020. Granted, I'm not sure she every cared about it all that much but she did and wouldn't even acknowledge that.

Yes, the last thing America wants is a candidate who can't admit when they're wrong. That's why they voted for the candidate known for his self-reflection and humbleness. Just absolute topnotch political analysis in this thread.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't think I said any of that. What "con" do you think I fell for? If you want to discuss the trans stuff in detail , do it here. It's not a moral panic thread. The gender ideology stuff potentially affects a lot of folks - girls & women (with regard to single-sex spaces), parents (there has been a huge surge in trans-IDing kids). There's a reason the Harris campaign didn't play it up, and the Trump campaign did.

The Trump campaign didn't just "play it up". They actively lied and spread conspiracy theories about it, just like they lied and spread conspiracy theories about everything else.

If you're going to make this your hobby horse, at the very least tell the truth about what happened.