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WHAT "Developments From The Vatican"?

Shane Costello said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Presbyterians believe that the die is cast at birth, predestination of souls being a central tenet of that branch of Protestantism?
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Basically, no. I'm Presbyterian, and I certainly do not believe that.

However, there are some obscure small sects around, and it's possible you might find one with that idea. I remember reading a novel by John Buchan (Witch Wood) involving some 17th century (I think) church elders who believed they were among "the elect", so could in effect do what they liked. However, I don't think they thought they'd been born into the elect, but rather that they'd been "saved".

I also remember having an argument with a couple of girls who were members of a small presbyterian church in Scotland (not the Church of Scotland) who were trying to declare that free will and predestination could be simultaneously true, because "God can do anything". I won that argument.

So, I wouldn't want to be categorical about small groups like the Free Presbyterian Church, but as a general rule, the mainstream Presbyterian churches like the Church of Scotland do not believe this.

In fact, I think we're back to the question of the nature of time. While you're in the linear stream of time we experience you are free to make decisions and influence your own destiny. However, outside that time-stream, everything could be considered as already having "happened".

Rolfe.
 
Shane Costello said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Presbyterians believe that the die is cast at birth, predestination of souls being a central tenet of that branch of Protestantism?
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It's a moot point what they believe because Catholics believe in free will, and thus all Protestants will go to Hell on their own merits :D
 
Originally posted by Rolfe:
Basically, no. I'm Presbyterian, and I certainly do not believe that.

However, there are some obscure small sects around, and it's possible you might find one with that idea. I remember reading a novel by John Buchan (Witch Wood) involving some 17th century (I think) church elders who believed they were among "the elect", so could in effect do what they liked. However, I don't think they thought they'd been born into the elect, but rather that they'd been "saved".
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Ah, well I came across the notion of predestination learning about the reformation in school, which is likely much the same way John Buchan got his background information for "Witch Wood".

Originally posted by richardm:
It's a moot point what they believe because Catholics believe in free will, and thus all Protestants will go to Hell on their own merits :D
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All the same we can include them in our prayers, so that eternity might not be so sulphurous for the more deserving among them!
 
My first thought at seeing the pictures of the dead Pope was: "Hey, how did they straighten him out?"




.... Sorry, I AM an incorrigible cynic.

Hans
 
My thoughts were "Why didn’t they do something to keep his feet together?” It looked quite undignified his feet pointing at such strange angles and then when they tipped his platform forward I was thinking "Oh wouldn’t it be funny if he slide off...?" - Sorry but that's the way I think about things.
 
SFB said:
Brown:

I recommend a book by Daniel Boorstin called The Image.
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I looked at the Amazon.com information. Looks interesting.
 
richardm said:
Perhaps they were just assuming ?

Phew. Nothing like the whiff of putrefaction to remind the faithful of their mortality!
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Yes, it could well have been an unsubstantiated assumption. I can't even remember where I heard or read it. I thought it was on BBC radio actually, but it could have been a newspaper front page seen while I was browsing a local shop. It was a bit of a throw-away, and could well have been sloppy journalism.

So, let's hope they do put the body in the fridge overnight at least. Six days even at spring temperatures could get a bit ripe.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
...snip...

So, let's hope they do put the body in the fridge overnight at least. Six days even at spring temperatures could get a bit ripe.

Rolfe.
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It's a good first test of whether he is a saint or not... ;)
 
Kwitcherbellyachin.

At least it's kept Michael jackson off the front page for a week. JP II should be made a saint just for that.
 
Perhaps Jackson should claim he was inspired by a Pope Pius IX... I mean not only was he a Pope but the current Pope just elevated him to Sainthood.
 
Presbyterianism has its roots in Calvinism, which does believe in pre-destination, although looking at Wikipedia, it appears that Presbyterianism has had plenty of schisms so that some Presbyterian churches don't do that anymore. And of course "Protestantism" doesn't have any core tenets except for "We ain't Catholic" and "That Jesus guy was on to something."
 
Rolfe said:
As I understand it, this is a big difference between Catholic and Protestant theology. We don't pray for the dead, because we believe that "the die is cast", as Brown said. Catholics do, because of all this stuff about purgatory, most of which I don't understand. (Or rather, I don't understand where they got it from.)
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And so the sectarian wars start, eh? My grandmother-in-law is a fine old god fearing protestant avangelical papist hater from way back, as would most of the 'religious right' backers of GWB be too. They believe the pope is the anti-christ, more or less, and the church he rules is corrupt and nothing to do with xianity at all.
 
richardm said:
It turns out that the plinth he's lying on is refrigerated. .
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I was about to mention that on a different thread the BBC site was still claiming that the body was embalmed, but when I went to check, I found that they'd altered the page some time this morning to make it agree with the one you linked to.

Rolfe.
 
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