Was this really necessary?

Gazpacho said:
Because aesthetics are worth something.
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You're predicating an argument on the idea that the word 'heaven' is inherently aesthetic, or more aesthetic than the word 'honor'? This is why aesthetics is a soft science. Might as well break it down into numerology, or analyze its feng shui.
 
Hemant Mehta (friendlyatheist) blogged about this, and, being concerned about whether it's the right move, emailed Jane Everhart, NYC Atheists director of communications. She gave ten reasons trying to justify their decision to sue, and answers a few points raised here (like banning religious city names). But I personally still think it's a wrong move, generating bad publicity, even if they'd win.

I'm not gonna flood the forum with her reply, just in case (I'm new here :) ). So here's the link to the blog post and her response: www(dot)patheos(dot)com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/07/08/nyc-atheists-responds-regarding-potential-seven-in-heaven-lawsuit/

(Sorry, I can't post full links before my 15 posts :( )
 
Andrew Wiggin said:
You're predicating an argument on the idea that the word 'heaven' is inherently aesthetic, or more aesthetic than the word 'honor'?
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If I decide to predicate an argument on that idea, I will say it so that you don't have to make things up.

The phrase chosen for the sign is in public use. That means it is catchy and memorable. There are people in the city who associate the phrase with these individuals. You would have the city instead substitute a "safe" phrase that they made up that has no particular meaning to anyone, as a way of memorializing people. Might as well make it "Commemorative Road #521."
 
Really, though, there's a difference between acknowledging religion ("Church Road", "Christensburg 38 miles", "Seven in Heaven road") and endorsing religion ("Believe in Christ road", "God is Great avenue", "There is no God, so don't speed!")
 
triforcharity said:
Your suggestion is idiotic at best. I was discussing the athiests in NYC suing the NYC governement over a sign. Please follow along. Notice I wasn't responding to anyone in this thread, nor did I quote someone and respond to it.

Thanks for your concern though. When you have 343 of your close friends die in a terrorist attack, then you can tell me how I should feel.

Thanks though.
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I think the suggestion that you weren't responding to anyone in the thread is patently absurd. If you weren't responding to anyone in the thread, then why did you write something in the thread?

Did you just click randomly on a thread, not read it, write a rant and then, by happy coincidence, discover that the rant you'd posted fitted the thread you'd picked. If that's the case I recon you might want to apply for the million dollars.

If you fail to see how your posting in the thread is responding to someone in the thread then I'm afraid I just can't help you at all.

Please note that personal or close tragedy, while very sad, doesn't give you any special leave to depart from the rules of logic and continuity. Indeed, the clear emotional attachment you have to the issue is clearly clouding your judgement. Maybe you should try to leave that behind while having a logical discussion? I didn't tell you how to feel, I merely noted that you seemed to believe that many people on the thread were misinterpreting you and that this was perhaps due to your being somewhat less than calm. I suggested calming down. It still seems like it might be a good idea, if I'm honest, even if only for your blood pressure.
 
Here's the fulcrum on which my opinion balances - was it the street sign which first named these heroes as "the seven in heaven" or was that a sobriquet that had already been in use prior to it's adoption as a street sign?
 
goodm0urning said:
I'm not sure I understand your point. The second part (no heaven) is plain honesty and the first part (worm food) is bluntness that doesn't appear to have any counterpart in the situation we're talking about.
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It was intentional hyperbole.

They might not say worm food, but the point is there is very little consideration for the dead with this action.

It doesn't say "Seven with Jesus" If it said that, I would probably be inclined to be on the atheists filing this lawsuit's side.

It says a vague "heaven" which is perfectly fine. "Rest in Peace" or "They're in a better place now" are just nice things we say when discussing the dead even if we don't believe them to be true.

Even Osama Bin Laden, if a Christian said he's burning in hell or an atheist said bacteria is eating away at him, I'd lose respect for that person despite it being true to them. Not cause I miss Bin Laden and want him back, but I think that disrespecting the dead is a horrible social image to portray.
 
Kahalachan said:
It was intentional hyperbole.

They might not say worm food, but the point is there is very little consideration for the dead with this action.

It doesn't say "Seven with Jesus" If it said that, I would probably be inclined to be on the atheists filing this lawsuit's side.

It says a vague "heaven" which is perfectly fine. "Rest in Peace" or "They're in a better place now" are just nice things we say when discussing the dead even if we don't believe them to be true.

Even Osama Bin Laden, if a Christian said he's burning in hell or an atheist said bacteria is eating away at him, I'd lose respect for that person despite it being true to them. Not cause I miss Bin Laden and want him back, but I think that disrespecting the dead is a horrible social image to portray.
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woot? what is so special about death people? i mean yes, honoring the seven firefighters is a great thing. but they earn respect because of their deeds not because they are dead.
Osama deserves no respect, and would worms and bacteria know what kind of guy he was im sure they would refuse to eat that crap.
 
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DC said:
woot? what is so special about death people? i mean yes, honoring the seven firefighters is a great thing. but they earn respect because of their deeds not because they are dead.
Osama deserves no respect, and would worms and bacteria know what kind of guy he was im sure they would refuse to eat that crap.
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Out of respect for the grieving. As in the case of good people who die.

The general social image that "you will be missed when you go and we will honor you" makes death a more bearable reality. Especially for an atheist knowing there's nothing beyond, that social image should be all the more important to project.

Edit: To answer about Osama, it's nice to know that someone who hates my guts will be socially ostracized for dancing on my grave. Even if you hate them, you hate what they did in life and not rejoice in their death.
 
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Kahalachan said:
It was intentional hyperbole.

They might not say worm food, but the point is there is very little consideration for the dead with this action.

It doesn't say "Seven with Jesus" If it said that, I would probably be inclined to be on the atheists filing this lawsuit's side.

It says a vague "heaven" which is perfectly fine. "Rest in Peace" or "They're in a better place now" are just nice things we say when discussing the dead even if we don't believe them to be true.

Even Osama Bin Laden, if a Christian said he's burning in hell or an atheist said bacteria is eating away at him, I'd lose respect for that person despite it being true to them. Not cause I miss Bin Laden and want him back, but I think that disrespecting the dead is a horrible social image to portray.
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I wish Osama is burning in hell but unfortunatly it very likely does not exist.
 
Kahalachan said:
Out of respect for the grieving. As in the case of good people who die.

The general social image that "you will be missed when you go and we will honor you" makes death a more bearable reality. Especially for an atheist knowing there's nothing beyond, that social image should be all the more important to project.

Edit: To answer about Osama, it's nice to know that someone who hates my guts will be socially ostracized for dancing on my grave. Even if you hate them, you hate what they did in life and not rejoice in their death.
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well some people deserve respect and some not, and death doesn't magically make you deserve more respect. I think that is nonsense.
 
It doesn't magically give you respect. It's just we should have a society that doesn't in any way encourage or rejoice in it.

Killing is a necessary evil at times. Death is inevitable. But we should like give nature the middle finger and say "We hate it"

If that were strongly ingrained in society I imagine fewer people to turn to delusions of an afterlife.
 
Kahalachan said:
It doesn't magically give you respect. It's just we should have a society that doesn't in any way encourage or rejoice in it.

Killing is a necessary evil at times. Death is inevitable. But we should like give nature the middle finger and say "We hate it"

If that were strongly ingrained in society I imagine fewer people to turn to delusions of an afterlife.
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modern medicine has given mister reaper many middle fingers.
 
Kahalachan said:
It doesn't magically give you respect. It's just we should have a society that doesn't in any way encourage or rejoice in it.

Killing is a necessary evil at times. Death is inevitable. But we should like give nature the middle finger and say "We hate it"

If that were strongly ingrained in society I imagine fewer people to turn to delusions of an afterlife.
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I encourage the whacking of evil people and I rejoice when it happens.
 
I think it's pretty uncalled for and I'm very much an atheist.

This is the exact sort of thing that makes us look like angry little trolls trying to take religion away from people. You don't win hearts and minds by insisting that brave men who gave their lives can't be remembered in the way they probably would have wanted to.

I'd feel differently if the seven happened to be atheists. They died giving their lives for others. Odds are pretty good that they were religious believers of some stripe. We don't need to take that away from them or the people they left behind.

This is such a minor mix of government and religion that it's completely pointless to fight it. The only thing accomplished is that atheists look downright nasty.
 
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