War on Christians

[brodski]

I get your point. As an addendum, if blacks were being treated equally bad by the US government/society as latinos and asians and jews, they could still claim they were being persecuted. That's a stretch of an analogy of course.

yes because there would be other ethnic groups which would be treated better. Which religious groups in the US are given preferential treatment over Christians?

 

[clarsct]

I see this as the same psychology that happens when the youngest of the family suddenly becomes the middle child. All the sudden, their not special anymore. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!


Christians have been getting special treatment since the Romans converted. Yeah, there have been bumpy roads, but they HAVE had thing their own way in Western society for a LONG time. Now, with new, secular forces at work such as the Internet, people, especially young people, are finding out about MANY religions and many customs. They are starting to realize that all Buddhists are NOT evil, and some true-blue Communists can be nice fellahs, if a little wacky.

All this is reactionary crap from the boomers. Xianity is simply one belief amongst many. They've lost their 'specialness'. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

It isn't persecution. It's the new Zietgiest knocking down your door.


Oh, and elliot:

FEELING better is not necessarily GETTING better. Your mind can fool you into feeling great, even when the sickness is spreading. And what's worse, relying on a placebo can be deadly. You could ignore REAL medical treatments that could help you GET better.

 

[elliotfc]

yes because there would be other ethnic groups which would be treated better. Which religious groups in the US are given preferential treatment over Christians?

Ah, I see your point. I think secular Christians have it better than more traditional Christians, on the whole. There are lots of different kinds of Christians.

-Elliot

 

[elliotfc]

Christians have been getting special treatment since the Romans converted. Yeah, there have been bumpy roads, but they HAVE had thing their own way in Western society for a LONG time. Now, with new, secular forces at work such as the Internet, people, especially young people, are finding out about MANY religions and many customs. They are starting to realize that all Buddhists are NOT evil, and some true-blue Communists can be nice fellahs, if a little wacky.

All this is reactionary crap from the boomers. Xianity is simply one belief amongst many. They've lost their 'specialness'. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

FEELING better is not necessarily GETTING better. Your mind can fool you into feeling great, even when the sickness is spreading. And what's worse, relying on a placebo can be deadly. You could ignore REAL medical treatments that could help you GET better.

It depends what the desired result is. You can be getting better, but feel miserable, or, you can be getting worse, but feel great. I'm not advocating placebos. If someone is seeing a psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist prescribes a sugar pill, and psychological health improves, that's worth something.

I'm not advocating homeopathy. Is it essentially evil, or, does homeopathy do no good? I dunno, it can't be the scourge of the earth, and if some people get good out of it good for them. Should we be skeptical of homeopathy? Of course. I'm skeptical of it myself and would never see a homeopathic doctor, nor would I recommend that to anyone. I don't begrude those who do. -Elliot

 

[brodski]

Ah, I see your point. I think secular Christians have it better than more traditional Christians, on the whole. There are lots of different kinds of Christians.

-Elliot

I'm not familiar with your term "secular Christan's", unlike in Judaism, there is no ethnic element to Christianity, so I don't really see how one can be both "secular" and Christan, but I would be very interested in learning.

yes there are many different kinds of Christan, but no Christian body, and no other religious body in the US is either able to compel non believers to worship, or to use public funds to spread their faith. They have exactly the same legal rights and responsibilities as every other faith group, and as Christan's make up the majority of the population, in the absence of a government sponsored "war on Christians" I fail to see how such a war could be carried out (unless you want to hypothesize about a "false class consciousness" )

 

[gfunkusarelius]

seems the "war on christianity" is something the leadership is using to rally the "troops." i am sure they do feel threatened because their comfort zone is being challenged, but they seem to be getting more airtime since 9/11 because i guess alot of people in america who thought muslim extremists were much fewer and further between were scared and the christian leadership saw a point of traction and have be milking it for all its worth.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm not familiar with your term "secular Christan's", unlike in Judaism, there is no ethnic element to Christianity, so I don't really see how one can be both "secular" and Christan, but I would be very interested in learning.

There are many secular Christians in Australia. Most of us really don't give a damn, but when pressed will acknowledge the existence of the God of the Bible, and Christ and all that. They don't go to chuirch regularly, don't pray except for their favourite spoorts team, but are still effectively Christian in their belief structure.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

You know something? Yes, it's religious, but for crying out loud, trying to stamp out EVERY official reference to God is ultimately a waste of time. Pick the battles a little more carefully, and you can do greater good in the long run.

If Newdow hadn't been such a jackass, perhaps we might have seen the Pledge of Allegiance returned to its intended wording. That might have been a better battle, and a smarter one.

Roadtoad, our money didn't used to be vandalized with god-wuz-here. It used to just read a tasteful, inspiring latin motto. It's not that activists are trying to remove references to religion from government, its that activists are trying to oppose religious fanatics who have been slyly adding their propaganda to our government for the past two hundred years. There's a little difference there.

 

[Roadtoad]

Roadtoad, our money didn't used to be vandalized with god-wuz-here. It used to just read a tasteful, inspiring latin motto. It's not that activists are trying to remove references to religion from government, its that activists are trying to oppose religious fanatics who have been slyly adding their propaganda to our government for the past two hundred years. There's a little difference there.

"In God We Trust" was no more than a tasteful motto at one point. Now, ID, you're right; it's become part of the day's jingoism. It never should have happened, but that's what happens when the Church decides to get into this business, instead of doing what it was supposed to do in the first place, which is handle the social needs of the community, such as shelter for the poor, (and I mean LIVEABLE shelter), food for the hungry, (EDIBLE food), and clothing for the needy, (SERVICEABLE clothing).

 

[ImaginalDisc]

"In God We Trust" was no more than a tasteful motto at one point. Now, ID, you're right; it's become part of the day's jingoism. It never should have happened, but that's what happens when the Church decides to get into this business, instead of doing what it was supposed to do in the first place, which is handle the social needs of the community, such as shelter for the poor, (and I mean LIVEABLE shelter), food for the hungry, (EDIBLE food), and clothing for the needy, (SERVICEABLE clothing).

Chruches do that stuff? Eh, I'm biased.

 

[Huntster]

...Point being, you're counting the hits and ignoring the misses... heck, fascism made the trains run on time but I don't look back on it as a lost golden age.

Perhaps not a golden age, but not long afterwards (when the population allowed the fascist extremists to go overboard), times sure were "booming" in their cities, weren't they?

Extremism, whether it's christian, secular, islamic, fascist, communist, skeptic, etc. is a good way to bring on disaster.

 

[Roadtoad]

Chruches do that stuff? Eh, I'm biased.

They're supposed to. If you read through the New Testament, that was not only what Jesus commanded, it's what the early Church did. (The whole business with Ananias and Sapphira was centered around this sort of thing: They claimed they gave all the money they earned from some property they sold so the Church could support those in need in the community, when, in fact, they'd only given part of the proceeds.)

I'll say it again: Read it through! The whole point was that a Christian wasn't supposed to just sit in the pews and sing praises to Jesus. A Christian was supposed to be giving of himself to make a better world.

Missionaries didn't just go into the jungles to preach the Gospel; some were doctors, others were teachers. If all they did was preach, they were judged failures. But, if they could help cure disease in the communities where they were supposed to be serving, if they could teach people to read, they were truly making a real difference.

That's not what the Church is about anymore. It's more laughingstock than liberator anymore. And the Chruches which are growing, which are filling the pews these days, are nearly as much entertainment venues than places where people get their hands dirty and serve others. And if you ask if you can do that, what you get are dirty looks, or a patronizing attitude, "Aw, how sweet. He must have read the Book of James."

"In God We Trust" has become a political slogan. It is not now what it was ever meant to mean when it was first placed on our currency. People ought to be ashamed to call themselves "Christian" if the only thing they do is park their posteriors in pews on Sundays and Wednesdays. You're not considered a Christian in America if you vote Democrat, if you watch the evening news, or if you know anyone who's gay.

And, sadly, this is the attitude we're getting from folks like Kurious Kathy. She's yet to show us otherwise. She helps other folks out in her community once in a while? That's fine. I tried to make it a life, and either faced resistance from everyone I knew in the Church, or was ridiculed until I conformed.

Now, I'm gone.

Eventually, we're going to see that slogan removed from our money. We'll see "under God" removed from the pledge. We DON'T trust in God. Certainly not now. If we trusted in God, when people hurt, we would work to heal instead of finding the front row so we could watch Job's friends spew their oral diarrhea when someone's in trouble. Around here, people work to heal the hurting. I'll ask you, ID, when was the last time YOU saw that happening in a Church? (Oral Roberts doesn't count.)

The Church, such as it once was meant to be, is no more. We have lost a great thing, and it was the Church itself which did the deed.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Roadtoad,

In general, I agree, but there some relatively non-judgemental and charitable churches. The Society of Friends (Quakers) are pretty respectable. That doesn't automatically make one a good person though. Nixon was raised Quaker.

As for the early churches being very charitable, that's true for some branches, but others taught that suffering was super fantastic! Some folks, like Paul, just ran around and prosyletized. There were as many uncharitable Christians then as now, I'd wager.

 

[Zbu]

Plus this war of Christians have to come from some pathetic sort of dualism. Most of the people who scream the loudest about the Jesus are usually the same people who have some really screwed up life that now they feel the need to help people.

You ever think Christianity in America is just the refuge for those who never had any self-esteem or self-worth? It's odd that we have a greater part of this country beating on bibles but never really get the point of what Jesus was. If I didn't know better, I would think that the point of Christianity in America was merely a choice of lack of having a real choice or alternative. Those who seem to be rabid about it are the ones who read the Cliff Notes version of it or assume they know what it's about or simply are so unaware of reality that they assume they know is right because they don't have anything else to back it up on.

I can't help but think of my conservative friends when reading this thread. A few days ago I told them about a project I was doing about making a Planned Parenthood documentary to showcase how they were helping the community via cheap birth control methods and, if possible, abortion information. They flew off the handle and told me that PP was 'nothing but a bunch of killers.' After several minutes of conservative talking points without merit being thrown in my face, I tried to reason with them. My point: if PP hands out birth control that prevents abortions, then why would an anti-choice person be against it?

Their response? Alternating tones of more talking points ("PP are killers"), pathetic attempts at emotional manipulation ("Would you like your daughter to go to one of those, huh??"), and more talk of them being put down ("I bet you'll only show their side of the discussion, none of their BABY MURDERING!"). This is when I came to two conclusions: Christians are easily lead without proof, and this in fact makes them very loud and possibly logical retards. There's no easy way to put it. They're so close-minded and stupid that I fail to see how any of them could really function as an adult. It seems the main prerequisite for being a Christian in America (outside of not knowing what prerequisite means) is being extremely gullible and not wanting the stress of having to make up your own damn mind.

It's hard not to conclude that all Christians are missing a few lego blocks in the old noggin.

 

[FredFlash]

This is probably the most genius work of spin, how else do you convince people that 90% of the population of this country is being persecuted?

They claim that their religious faith is under assault by secularists and atheists/agnostics/secular humanists, for some reason they can't seem to distinguish between those. They blame these groups for prayerless school, creationless school, and ten commandmentless court houses.

Apparantly, they either haven't read or disagree with the establishment clause of the first amendment US constitution. They also make the claim that our country was founded on christian ideals.

Our system of government was established on Christian principles in the sense that it was founded upon the fact that Christ said "My Kingdom is not of this world" and gave a lecture not to "Render unto Caesar what belongs to God."

FVF

 

[Piggy]

A Message from Inside the Asylum

There are many Xians who don't believe all the persecution hype.

The ones who do, live in a relatively closed world (even if they travel widely, which a few of them do) replete with self-reinforcing feedback.

How do I know this? Because I grew up within that culture, and I live in it now. These people are my co-workers, my neighbors, my childhood friends, and in some cases my family.

To understand the mindset, you have to be able to picture it from within its assumptions and social structures.

For this sort of Xian, the world is (entirely) a battle between the Truth of God and Jesus, and the deception of the Devil.

That which opposes the Truth of God and Jesus is, by definition, the work of the Enemy, the Deceiver. And "the Devil's biggest lie is that he doesn't exist".

This is a world of prophecy. Fulfillment of prophecy is more important than any mundane concern of daily life. And because Jesus could return at any moment -- and likely will, since we're seeing all the signs of the End Times -- it is of utmost importance that you and everyone you love have the correct belief RIGHT NOW or AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, because it is correct belief that will grant you eternal life in paradise, and wrong belief will condemn you to eternal torture in hell.

There are probably some reading this post who think I'm overstating the case. I assure you, I am not.

God raises up nations and peoples to do His work. America has a vital role in the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Final Days and the return of the Lord. The Jews have returned to Zion. Everywhere is famine, pestilence, war and rumors of war, and natural disaster. The vision of Revelation is being fulfilled in ways never before possible, through modern technology.

Yes, there is a Xian majority in America. But numbers are not an indication of strength. The force of the unXian government is a boot on the neck of the Xian people, just as it was in the days of Paul and the martyrs.

God will not bless a nation that denies Him. God will not bless a nation that banishes prayer from schools and God's commandments from its halls of justice. God will not bless a nation whose laws are an abomination, permitting abortion and condoning the sin of homosexuality.

The secular humanists have power far beyond their numbers, and they could only gain this power with the support of the Enemy. They are in control of the banks, the schools, and much of the government. It is up to Xian people to end this, and to take back America for Christ.

In our colleges and universities, the liberal professors teach our children that all religions are equal. Well, God doesn't think so! In our public schools, they teach value-free education, moral relativism, and religious neutrality. This is contrary to the teachings of the Almighty God as revealed in His holy Word!

Who has given this handful of people so much power over our children, over our nation? How have they managed to rewrite history, to deny the Xian foundations of our country?....

When planning his political strategy, Jack Abramoff reassured his co-conspirators that the "wackos" (evangelical fundamentalists) could be manipulated because they get their news from Xian radio and TV, word of mouth, mail, and telephone.

The world view of this group is highly warped. They believe the atheists, New Agers, secular humanists, and members of other religions to be much more numerous than they are. I remember being in the audience at a debate between William Buckley and Nadine Strossen, and watching the stern head-shakes when Ms. Strossen made the obviously false (but actually true) statement that the US is arguably the most religious nation in the world.

From this point of view, Xians are indeed rebels, speaking Truth to power. They are indeed persecuted for their beliefs. And they are commanded by God to fight until the battle is won.