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Voting On Issues: Referendum Politics

That is like saying we need a medical degree before we can choose a good doctor.
You have a hopelessly idealistic and very unrealistic view of how humans behave.
Your Vison needs a major change in perscription for your glasses, now.
Ok, I think you've got a pretty good point there. I do choose a doctor to look after me without having in-depth medical knowledge. And I do need to go to the optician as well.

I don't know what planet you are living on but it sure is not Earth.
Someday you will discover something called Reality. It will not be fun experience as your castles in the air come tumbling down but you will be a sadder but wiser person for it.
I consider myself to be a realist. You seem to have a powerful emotional reaction to this issue. You seem to have assumed that I'm sold on the idea. The idea has some interest for me, and I wonder if it has some strengths, and I've discussed plenty of the weaknesses myself.
 
I would suggest there are certain areas of politics that would be better suited than others to referenda, and instinctively I like the idea. I agree with the poster who suggested the majority of the population aren't all that smart (paraphrasing) but also agree that argument applies almost as well to what voting we do now.

The areas I think are best suited are those such as criminal sentencing, civil liberties (drugs, weapon possession, surveillance/records) and political reform (such as the upcoming vote on a/v)

I too hope the internet and edemocracy get used as a way of improving democracy.

But the whole 'yourfreedom' website they just launched is just awful, and totally transparent imo.
 
A few Federal Elections ago here in Canada the Reform Party (since defunct) had an election plank that would have mandated holding a referendum on any issue 3% of the electorate requested. The comedian Rick Mercer easily got the required number of "signatures" on his website to have a vote on whether Stockwell Day, the leader of Reform, be required to change his first name to Doris. ISTR that Day then upped the percentage and Mercer easily got the additional numbers.

The issue has not come up much since. ;)
 
A few Federal Elections ago here in Canada the Reform Party (since defunct) had an election plank that would have mandated holding a referendum on any issue 3% of the electorate requested. The comedian Rick Mercer easily got the required number of "signatures" on his website to have a vote on whether Stockwell Day, the leader of Reform, be required to change his first name to Doris. ISTR that Day then upped the percentage and Mercer easily got the additional numbers.

The issue has not come up much since. ;)

Hehehe
 
I would suggest there are certain areas of politics that would be better suited than others to referenda, and instinctively I like the idea. I agree with the poster who suggested the majority of the population aren't all that smart (paraphrasing) but also agree that argument applies almost as well to what voting we do now.
Can you help me sort out my confusion about this? I think you see my point that if we're too stupid to vote on issues we're too stupid to vote full stop. I kind of still feel that has a powerful logic - not, of course, that it means we should move towards less enfranchisement (let's just have people with PhDs with voting rights), but that it's a potentially enlightening criticism of us as citizens now and how we organise our affairs, and that it should stimulate us to take more political responsibility directly. Yet I can't help but concede dudalb's point, I don't self-medicate (often), I choose a doctor, and that means I'm doing a very similar thing to choosing a political party. Maybe the skills we plebs need is how to recognise the good guys from the bad guys when they're pontificating on the podium. Trouble is, I honestly think the system we have encourages the spin and corruption, and perhaps we should be even more worried if our best bet is to study body language to try to assess which party leader is the biggest liar.

Dudalb, BTW, has almost utterly misunderstood me. It would be unusual to find a more harshly realistic person than me when it comes to judging the human condition. I see us as almost entirely following the same biological laws that govern all other species, while we imagine that we direct our affairs rationally and progressively due to our intelligence and civilisation. We live as a species in much the same way as we make decisions individually - before we become consciously aware of them. We are bumble beings, just blindly fumbling our way towards the edge of a cliff (ooh, change of metaphor, we're lemmings now), fighting for resources and arguing about who's got the biggest, hardest, cruelest, most forgiving and loving God. But apparently when I wake up from my fantasy I'll be sadder, according to the great arbiter of Reality. The reason I'm "idealistic" (I'd say imaginitive) sometimes is to try to make more of the great potentials we humans do have. If resignation and helplessness stopped us striving for a more rational approach to life we'd never have had the Enlightenment. I'm trying to ask people if we're not sick of sleep-walking towards the end of the freaking world, passing the political buck to whomever we bothered to vote for, because we can't be bothered to make political decisions ourselves and don't know enough about running a country and like reading the Sun. And I get told to wake up. The comparison with the Enlightenment is clear - we used to argue that we're not clever enough to know the will of god, so we obviously have to keep asking the priest and the Pope what's true and what to do. Have a Crusade, obviously. Have a war on terrorism and another on drugs.

The areas I think are best suited are those such as criminal sentencing, civil liberties (drugs, weapon possession, surveillance/records) and political reform (such as the upcoming vote on a/v)
But why? Is that partly from your automatic referencing what 'Referendum' means and finding that it's normally used for the big stuff? What's wrong with local politics working on relatively trivial issues this way? At least we can immediately see an advantage - the issues aren't so critical if we get them wrong.

I too hope the internet and edemocracy get used as a way of improving democracy.
Hurrah - a fellow dreamer!

But the whole 'yourfreedom' website they just launched is just awful, and totally transparent imo.
Transparently what, in your opinion? I think it's no more than a political ploy and a pretense of listening. Crucially there is zero actual enfranchisement here. You're being "given" a place to have your say, as if you didn't have it already. OTOH, I can't dismiss the fact that there may be some genuine intention to take the people's views into account in formulating policy, but it's not power to the people, just a chat room (and for all we know, primarily a place to identify troublemakers so we can lock them up without charge for a month or so).
 
A few Federal Elections ago here in Canada the Reform Party (since defunct) had an election plank that would have mandated holding a referendum on any issue 3% of the electorate requested. The comedian Rick Mercer easily got the required number of "signatures" on his website to have a vote on whether Stockwell Day, the leader of Reform, be required to change his first name to Doris. ISTR that Day then upped the percentage and Mercer easily got the additional numbers.

The issue has not come up much since. ;)
Yes, that's a good example of how not to do direct democracy. It also underlines my earlier point that such a system should involve decision-making on the process as well as the content. Perhaps it could self-regulate the required percentages to win debates in different categories of decision.
 
Travis said:
No. Civil righs should never be up to voting since the majority can deny the minority.

See Proposition 8.

Does California require a supermajority of the population for a constitutional amendment?

It probably should. The whole point of one is to slow things down to avoid the "blowing winds of political passion." If amending the constitution is such a nifty idea, most people will think so, not just 51%, and they will still think so years down the road.

Crappy ideas, not so much.
 
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No. Civil righs should never be up to voting since the majority can deny the minority.
I don't understand. Isn't this just an unfortunate downside of democracy, that the minority don't get what they want? Do you mean there are certain things, which you call 'civil rights', that should never be taken away, and thus should never be voted on? If that's what you mean, are there such special types of decision, that must be upheld even if the majority don't want them?
 
Out of interest, do you think there is anything a referendum shouldn't be held on? Like relocating troops from one part of Afghanistan to the other?
 
I don't understand. Isn't this just an unfortunate downside of democracy, that the minority don't get what they want? Do you mean there are certain things, which you call 'civil rights', that should never be taken away, and thus should never be voted on? If that's what you mean, are there such special types of decision, that must be upheld even if the majority don't want them?

Human rights?
 
:redface1 well you know, referendum rock when done well.

Which examples do you cite? Which system of referendums has shown to work, instead of giving people making decisions even less accountability than elected officials have?
 
Does California require a supermajority of the population for a constitutional amendment?

Yes and no. It all depends on which of the two kinds of changes to its constitution it actually is. But in practice there seems to be nothing that needs more than a basic majority to pass.
 
Out of interest, do you think there is anything a referendum shouldn't be held on? Like relocating troops from one part of Afghanistan to the other?

Proposition 89QA3: This proposition will allow for Charlie Company 1/87 Infantry to advance 300 meters up Ridge 4801 in order to counterattack Insurgent elements that besieged them starting on the 8th of August.
 
Switzerland

So in reading the wikilink you gave earlier it seems that the referendum process you are in favor of is about popular confirmation of laws from the government? That is rather different than just needing enough signatures to get something on the ballot.
 
So in reading the wikilink you gave earlier it seems that the referendum process you are in favor of is about popular confirmation of laws from the government? That is rather different than just needing enough signatures to get something on the ballot.

we have both, Initiatives by Parliament and Initiatives by citizens, you need 100 000 signatures within 18 months.
 

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