VisionFromFeeling - General discussion thread

The reason why I was not too elaborate on the visualization part in my letter to the massage board is since the practice of visualization and what is termed "energy work" is not regulated by massage boards, so I did not inquire about something which I already knew they do not care about. Visualization and energy work is probably considered useless or entirely harmless.

It might be something the state medical board DOES care about, however. Did you attempt to contact either of those agencies, or were you simply planning to circumvent any concerns or regulations they might have?
 
I do not believe in his story

Right. Then supposedly you are making mistakes when you "explain":
... what I do is woo ...
And
"What I do is, based on how I assume to feel the pain of the person, I design where to apply pressure, how, and for how long, so I am designing the massage based on intuition, or empathy. ...
and
... but that is what I do ...
and
I also offered to give a more detailed description of what it is I do ...


Those words do not match with you not believing that claim.
No, you believe it. Through thick and thin.
 
How exactly does this treatment work?
If what I do works, I do not have a mechanism for how it works and can only offer my own ideas, but those are meaningless unless verified. If the visualization part is effective, it would involve some sort of interaction between something constructed of my thoughtwaves with an aspect in the person's body that responds to those thoughtwaves.

Not as science-fiction as it sounds, as recent scientific research has shown that electromagnetic fields in the frequency range of human brainwaves will cause cells and intercellular components to realign their placement according to the applied field. Imagine the familiar experiment where iron filings are placed on a sheet of glass under which is a magnet and the iron filings realign according to the magnetic field lines. I would want to verify an effectivity in the method first before investing into finding a mechanism for it.

As for the other part of the treatment, the massage itself, it will of course produce a more palpable effect of realigning tissues. If migraines are the result of, or are manifested by means of, unfavorable alignment across blood vessels and nerves, then balancing those out with physical manipulation could be effective, if one knew how to design such a procedure for each individual case. Still, I would rather confirm effectivity before looking into how it works.

How was it developed?
I design the treatment based on how I assume to feel the ailment, and the specifics of each treatment is unique for each case.

What are the side-effects? (Both short & long term)
In each of the only two prior cases neither of the recipients of the treatment have experienced any new side-effects, so none could be attributed to the treatment.

What are the possibilities that it will make my migraines worse?
The recipient of the one past case of migraine treatment experienced a significant improvement and nothing that could be interpreted as a worsening of the migraine condition. The method can not be concluded as safe based on only one or two past cases.

How long will it take to see results?
In both of the two past cases, a significant improvement in their pain condition was experienced immediately. In your case, since your migraines are already more seldom occurring, it would take longer to notice a reduction in the frequency and severity of migraines, than it did for the previous person who immediately dropped from 12 to 2 migraines a month. It would take longer for you to notice that you are having fewer and milder migraines.

If you can not answer these questions, then you might not want to test on people. It doesn't matter if you can get around the law to do so. The law allows all sorts of alt med quacks to rip people off in any number of colorful and creative ways. That doesn't mean it's right. People are real. Their pain is real. Migraines aren't just some headache with conveniently capricious occurrences.
My intention is not to rip people off. I only want to see if I could offer a useful treatment alternative for migraine sufferers.
 
Ah, see that's the problem right there. It is his belief and his experience. Making it impossible for you to know all the facts in this case. Have his migraines vanished before? (Most likely, it is the pattern.) Does he believe in energy work? Is there some history or pattern of a placebo effect following a new treatment? (This is very common. Which is why migraines are a cash cow to alt med.)
I have questioned him thoroughly and in spite of the fact that I remain skeptical to his experience of relief, which he attributes to what I did, I find reasons to investigate. And on the contrary to many of yours beliefs, I would welcome falsification in this case. It would be an interesting case of woo that was falsified as the result of careful and open minded investigation. I would gain valuable experience with which I could then pursue the claims made by woo practitioners and urge them to submit to a controlled test.

You might never know the answers to these questions. The man himself might not possess enough understanding of woo to be objective. (think of how many people believe in The Secret.)
That is why I am searching for Skeptics such as you to volunteer. :)

However, this does give you a wonderful chance to be a skeptical investigator. Play the devil's advocate for a while, take the opposing view. If it wasn't your laying-on of hands, what was it? Let me know what you find, it will be a very interesting case.
I don't know. Based on his own description of his migraine history it truly is an interesting case, and, beats me!
 
This part of your post is so typical of what we've seen before. You claim you're "putting his claim to the test" you "don't believe his story" exactly how are you going to test this? I'd like you to tell us step by step what you are going to do. We've been down this road with you many times in the past and the results, to put it mildly, have been disappointing. If you are truly "trying to apply critical thinking" I'd like to see some sort of protocol or even an outline posted by you.
1. Outline what I am legally allowed to do in terms of the design of such a study.

2. If there is a way to construct such a study without me having training and license to practice massage treatment, to proceed with planning the study. Otherwise I am quite likely to undergo the training and to obtain a license, not just for this study but also to become able to treat people. In the meantime I can try my method on acquaintances and see what the results indicate.

3. If I can conduct a study, to advertise for migraine sufferers to volunteer for the tested treatment.

4. Carry out the study.

5. Evaluate the results.

6. Conclude either that the method is useless, useful, or that more data is required before a conclusion can be made.

I am still on part 1. and am listening to your suggestions and starting to formulate the next steps.
 
But, where is your evidence that you have applied critical thinking to his claim? You posted about the cessation of his migraines months ago, almost immediately after your 'treatments'....but you never attempted any data collection to either prove or disprove what you say he was claiming. [...]
Unfortunately the man I tried my treatment method on he is the only one who can provide any data around his migraines before or since. I do not believe in the improvement he is claiming but he insists that he has been honest. Rather than dwell too much on this one person I would hope to find a Skeptic who is happy to let me know that the method could not have been helpful in their migraines.

I have asked him some questions a few times since the treatment but I stopped following his migraine history two months after we met. Both of those two months he said he had only two migraines each. I do not trust his word because the improvement he is describing is simply off the charts too good! So I would rather find someone else to try on who for sure would not be embarrassed to admit that it did not work. Does this make sense, or have I made an error?

If I write to him today, what questions should I ask? Help me out here, because I just don't know if he is credible, but none of my attempts to reveal him a liar have been successful. He comes across as not a believer of woo, as being very science minded and intelligent and well rounded and also quite credible. His supposed improvement is also confirmed by his family and friends who see him a lot.

I am open to suggestions. I can not proceed one way or the other in this claim by learning more from this one person and saw it best to find someone else.
 
... and am listening to your suggestions
Considering:
  • complete absence of anything demonstrably in need of being studied or tested
  • your conduct surrounding your previous claim!
I for one will not waste my time creating suggestions for any "test" or "study" regarding your claim of magically healing migraines.
 
As for the other part of the treatment, the massage itself, it will of course produce a more palpable effect of realigning tissues. If migraines are the result of, or are manifested by means of, unfavorable alignment across blood vessels and nerves, then balancing those out with physical manipulation could be effective, if one knew how to design such a procedure for each individual case. Still, I would rather confirm effectivity before looking into how it works.

You have not received any training in massage therapy, isn't that right? So there is the strong possibility that your amateur efforts could actually cause damage to the subject.

VisionFromFeeling said:
In each of the only two prior cases neither of the recipients of the treatment...
VisionFromFeeling said:
The recipient of the one past case of migraine treatment experienced a significant improvement...
VisionFromFeeling said:
In both of the two past cases, a significant improvement in their pain condition was experienced immediately.

Well, which is it, Anita? One case or two? If there is a second case, why do you have no data to support that one, either?

VisionFromFeeling said:
The reason why I was not too elaborate on the visualization part in my letter to the massage board is since the practice of visualization and what is termed "energy work" is not regulated by massage boards, so I did not inquire about something which I already knew they do not care about. Visualization and energy work is probably considered useless or entirely harmless.

It would be something the state medical board DOES care about, however. Did you attempt to contact either of those agencies, or were you simply planning to circumvent any concerns or regulations they might have by not contacting them?

VisionFromFeeling said:
His supposed improvement is also confirmed by his family and friends who see him a lot.

And, yet, when you were encouraging UncaYimmy to contact this gentleman, he was told that he was not allowed to speak to the wife or even mention the purpose of his phone call if she were to answer the phone. That makes your statement above somewhat less than legitimate. As well. despite this vast array of 'confirmations', you have absolutely no data to support the claim you say this man and his family and friends are making. The best you have offered was a lie about 'affidavits'. Do you even see where your claim that you are capable of conducting a 'scientific' investigation falls apart here? Why should anyone volunteer to help you?

VisionFromFeeling said:
If I write to him today, what questions should I ask? Help me out here...

You are a 4th year science student, and this is YOUR 'scientific' investigation. Surely you must have some idea how to collect short and long term data on YOUR subject?

VisionFromFeeling said:
In the meantime I can try my method on acquaintances and see what the results indicate.

So, it is perfectly all right if you, untrained as you are in massage therapy, practice amateur, possibly illegal manipulations on people simply because they are 'acquaintances' (or 'family and friends')? Are your acquaintances, family, and friends from Arcturus or something?
 
Oh dear.

So we had the Amazing Medical Diagnosis claim.
Which was tested and failed.

Then there was the Photo Reading claim.
Which was tested and failed (and later withdrawn)

We had the Chemical Analysis claim (aka crushed pill identification)
Which was tested and failed.

Then we had the Kidney Identification claim (which was supposedly Anita's best and strongest claim of everything).
Which was tested and failed.

Now we have the Migraine Removal claim.
(Which is obviously the worst of all as... drum roll... Migraines can disappear by themselves).

Just to save time Anita - when you fail this test as well, what claim do you have lined up next?

An amazing ability to make itches disappear?
A remarkable technique to make colds magically heal?
A staggering talent in making clouds dissolve?

I thought this whole charade had got as lame as it was going to get, but I see Anita is moving more and more towards 'treatment' of maladies that are capricious, subjective and random.

She really is heading rapidly towards the usual very mundane and standard New Age health practice nonsense.

Anyone remember the amazing ability to 'see into bodies' to a 'molecular level'?

We sure are a long way from that now aren't we.
 
You keep making these claims.

Sometimes there are tests, and you ignore the results.

Sometimes you simply ignore your previous claims.

There doesn't seem to be any point to further testing.
 
Legal and ethical questions aside, the treatment in question – visualizations combined with massage – seems muddled to me. People already use massage to treat and prevent migraine pain. The effectiveness of massage treatments is highly susceptible to individual interpretation so I wouldn’t say it’s a recognized and reliable treatment method but it’s certainly not an idea out of left field. Pairing something we already know may work on some level for some people with a new element – the visualization – is going to taint any results. If VFF provides treatments and if they work there’s no way to tell whether her visualizations helped at all. I’d agree that there doesn’t seem to be any point in further testing.
 
You guys considered my medical perceptions claim falsified before it even begun. I prefer to collect data around a claim before carefully concluding on it. Skepticism should not be about disbelief, it should be about curiosity, openness to find out and willingness to test and consider.

My interpretation of the results of my test on medical perceptions leads me to have another test. From my background in chemistry I know that a subject under study is rarely concluded on in an afternoon or based on only one set of tests. Any of you who have actually worked with research know that research is a tedious and iterative process. You go back and adjust the test procedure to approach a result that is reliable. If you suspect that your proposed hypothesis may manifest itself under a different temperature, you go back and test that assertion rather than sit and think that maybe temperature does have an effect and maybe it does not. Skeptical research, similarly, is more than a thought process. Research is hard, physical labor based on experimental evidence.

And if I have reason to think that the set of subjects in trial 1 is what led me to not make an answer I was confident in and exhaustion in trial 3, then it is best to invest in another test in which these concerns have been corrected for. Falsification can only become more apparent, not less, if that is the conclusion it leads to.

As for the migraine treatment claim, I will investigate it until a reliable volunteer in that study states that the method was not helpful in their migraines. Data and research, not assumptions, should be the basis for concluding on claims, even claims of the paranormal or claims that seem absurd. Some woos might conclude without research and data that healing is possible and some skeptics might conclude without research and data that healing is not possible. I am somewhere in the middle and open for either answer but willing to only conclude based on data.

Woos choose what to believe. Skeptics who choose what to disbelieve are nothing but woos hiding under the good name of Skeptics to give their personal opinions some value. A true Skeptic is not allowed to choose what to believe but does their best to find the truth regardless of their preconceived ideas, prejudices, or personal preferences.

You have no right to say that there is no way that what I do could have any effect on a person's migraines or to try to discourage me from finding out. Stop acting like woos and encourage research in the paranormal.
 
If a statistically significant majority of persons who receive a migraine treatment from me experience a coinciding and considerable improvement in their migraine condition, it becomes safe to assume that a future case is likely to experience the same, therefore the treatment option becomes viable and is concluded as useful and should be offered.

Of course effectivity does not distinguish between a physical cause of improvement and something that is produced by the expectations and placebo of the recipient, but this element can be determined by involving two groups; one that receives a true treatment and another that does not. Yet I am sure that each migraine sufferer would agree that if there is any safe, useful method to alleviate their pain, it doesn't matter how it comes about - as long as it works! Don't you think the migraine sufferers try to help themselves with placebo and wishful thinking?

If something in what I do acchieves that, in spite of my assurances that what I am about to do is to be considered useless nonsense, then so be it - as long as it works!!

As for the concern of involvement of visualization, the completion of my visualization exercise coincided with immediate relief in both cases and so I can not exclude it from my study just yet and pretend to be studying the treatment method that was used. I would plan to create two separate groups of volunteers who receive the exact same treatment differing only in whether the visualization technique is implemented or not, and only then can I reliably conclude the visualization as either a required part of the process or as useless. As much as we hate to even consider such unthinkable woo as visualization, I would feel better having falsified it with data rather than through mere and simple skeptical disbelief.

I find reason to investigate this, and after I conclude on this healing/alternative treatment claim, I intend to go after the other practitioners of woo. This will be an important exercise in developing skills to look into claims made by others. Woos, and the believers of woo, will not falsify their beliefs just because a "Skeptic said so", so we must get used to collecting the evidence against a claim.
 
You guys considered my medical perceptions claim falsified before it even begun. I prefer to collect data around a claim before carefully concluding on it.

But when you do collect data, you completely ignore it and never conclude anything.
Everyone else concludes from the data you gather that there is no ability as claimed. That is the conclusion that can be drawn.

But you simply decide to add more variables and parameters to ensure you never reach any conclusion.
This is not scientific. It is basically the exact opposite of scientific.

Skepticism should not be about disbelief, it should be about curiosity, openness to find out and willingness to test and consider.

It's also about forming conclusions based on what the evidence indicates.
Your idea of skepticism appears to involve clinging to your beliefs in direct opposition to what the evidence actually indicates.
This is not skepticism. It is basically the exact opposite of skepticism.

My interpretation of the results of my test on medical perceptions leads me to have another test.

You failed. An actual scientist would have accepted the results and considered the claim to be without merit.
But you however will always choose to interpret any set of results as requiring of 'further study'. No matter how much they indicate nothing of the sort.

From my background in chemistry I know that a subject under study is rarely concluded on in an afternoon or based on only one set of tests.

*sigh* Another transparent way to continue running failed tests for ever.

When a claim is clear and well stated why on earth could this not happen?
So how many failed series of tests are you intending to run?

When a Chemist claims he can make water boil at room temperature simply by adding a spoonful of salt to a beaker of water, how many trials would you expect him to run before declaring that this was not actually the case?

Any of you who have actually worked with research know that research is a tedious and iterative process. You go back and adjust the test procedure to approach a result that is reliable. If you suspect that your proposed hypothesis may manifest itself under a different temperature, you go back and test that assertion rather than sit and think that maybe temperature does have an effect and maybe it does not. Skeptical research, similarly, is more than a thought process. Research is hard, physical labor based on experimental evidence.

It does not have to be. It depends on the scope of what is being studied.
When someone claims they can, at will, look into a person's body to an atomic level and identify the molecules and atoms, offering them crushed pills to identify would be a fairly conclusive test.

Anyway all this is irrelevant - what you (as the *cough* 'researcher') are actually kind of supposed to do is state, at the start, what your statistical rate would be for failure.

Those of us actually familiar with research understand that you don't just randomly keep testing something, mucking about with parameters, without structure or any form of conclusion or end to the series of experiments.

But the one thing none of your tests/studies/experiments ever have is a clear stated falsification scenario.
For all your pretense to be investigating this scientifically, you refuse point blank to ever have any set of results which you would accept as demonstrating conclusively that you have no special abilities.

You have never provided such a set of parameters and you never will. Because you have absolutely no intention to ever stop running these pointless tests. You'll keep tweaking parameters and 'learning new things' about the ability and changing the claim being study...

But we know that you simply never want the testing to end.

And if I have reason to think that the set of subjects in trial 1 is what led me to not make an answer I was confident in and exhaustion in trial 3, then it is best to invest in another test in which these concerns have been corrected for. Falsification can only become more apparent, not less, if that is the conclusion it leads to.

Not if you never actually add a falsification scenario.

You have failed to perform above chance. In multiple different tests.
It's hard to know how much worse you can realistically do without starting to have an amazing anti-ability.

As for the migraine treatment claim, I will investigate it until a reliable volunteer in that study states that the method was not helpful in their migraines.

Nice little addition of the word 'reliable' there. So presumably you will be allowing people who are not reliable into your study, but then just ignoring them if they tell you you are having no effect.
Another 'out' pre built into the test. As usual.

Data and research, not assumptions, should be the basis for concluding on claims, even claims of the paranormal or claims that seem absurd.

This is actually what we keep telling you.
The data and research backs up our opinions on your claim.

The assumptions are all coming from your side of the claim. You assume you have some ability so testing must continue until some statistical anomaly is dscovered. Even if that takes forever.

Some woos might conclude without research and data that healing is possible and some skeptics might conclude without research and data that healing is not possible. I am somewhere in the middle and open for either answer but willing to only conclude based on data.

But for some reason not any of the data you have produced so far.
That's apparently the wrong sort of data - the sort that concludes you have no ability.

Woos choose what to believe. Skeptics who choose what to disbelieve are nothing but woos hiding under the good name of Skeptics to give their personal opinions some value. A true Skeptic is not allowed to choose what to believe but does their best to find the truth regardless of their preconceived ideas, prejudices, or personal preferences.

Which is why no-one here thinks of you as a skeptic.

You have no right to say that there is no way that what I do could have any effect on a person's migraines or to try to discourage me from finding out. Stop acting like woos and encourage research in the paranormal.

We're all for research into the paranormal.
But not meaningless random 'research' that is poorly conducted, has no structure and refuses to entertain the possibility of failure.
That's not real research, just delusion and attention seeking behaviour.

So, care to actually clearly state a falsification scenario?

Are you able to detail a test and a set of results from which you would be happy to conclude you have no special ability and no further testing is required?
 
You guys considered my medical perceptions claim falsified before it even begun. I prefer to collect data around a claim before carefully concluding on it. Skepticism should not be about disbelief, it should be about curiosity, openness to find out and willingness to test and consider.


It must also be about applying the scientific method, an area in which you have demonstrated virtually no ability.

My interpretation of the results of my test on medical perceptions leads me to have another test.


Your interpretation of the results was severely flawed by your faith that you have magical abilities.

From my background in chemistry I know that a subject under study is rarely concluded on in an afternoon or based on only one set of tests. Any of you who have actually worked with research know that research is a tedious and iterative process. You go back and adjust the test procedure to approach a result that is reliable.


But if you are honest you don't make up crap about the results... after the fact... in order to support your preconceived notion that you have some kind of magical abilities. That is one area where we all agree that you differ from any legitimate scientist.

If you suspect that your proposed hypothesis may manifest itself under a different temperature, you go back and test that assertion rather than sit and think that maybe temperature does have an effect and maybe it does not. Skeptical research, similarly, is more than a thought process. Research is hard, physical labor based on experimental evidence.


Your opinion, based on your claimed qualifications, is simply lip service. Recall that your qualifications have been challenged, and you have been found to be wholly unqualified as a scientist.

And if I have reason to think that the set of subjects in trial 1 is what led me to not make an answer I was confident in and exhaustion in trial 3, then it is best to invest in another test in which these concerns have been corrected for. Falsification can only become more apparent, not less, if that is the conclusion it leads to.


Your repeated excuses for failing the IIG show are at best disingenuous, and at worst a continued attempt to spit in the faces of every single person who invested any effort into helping you with that project. You have demonstrated a disdain not only for the process of science, but worse, for all the people who have participated in your ongoing scam.

As for the migraine treatment claim, I will investigate it until a reliable volunteer in that study states that the method was not helpful in their migraines.


And by stating that you demonstrate once again that you are not qualified to engage in scientific research. Your failure to understand the process makes you incapable of obtaining meaningful results, and in the case of medical concerns, makes you a danger to anyone else who might become involved.

Data and research, not assumptions, should be the basis for concluding on claims, even claims of the paranormal or claims that seem absurd. Some woos might conclude without research and data that healing is possible and some skeptics might conclude without research and data that healing is not possible. I am somewhere in the middle and open for either answer but willing to only conclude based on data.


That, given your known history, is another lie. You have shown in every instance that you are only willing to conclude that you have magical powers.

Woos choose what to believe.


Yes, you do.

Skeptics who choose what to disbelieve are nothing but woos hiding under the good name of Skeptics to give their personal opinions some value. A true Skeptic is not allowed to choose what to believe but does their best to find the truth regardless of their preconceived ideas, prejudices, or personal preferences.

You have no right to say that there is no way that what I do could have any effect on a person's migraines or to try to discourage me from finding out. Stop acting like woos and encourage research in the paranormal.


You have no right to speak on behalf of skeptics. You are not one. You have shown since your first posting on this forum that given your extremely limited understanding of skepticism, you refuse to apply it. And that brings us back around to this...

Feel free to apply skepticism and call me a liar and a fraud.


At your invitation we have applied skepticism and come to the conclusion that you are indeed a liar and a fraud.
 
You just don't seem prepared to accept a negative result, no matter what, even if you claim you are before the test. Sorry, Anita, you seem like a nice person but you are definitely a woo.

If the migraine thing were your first claim, you would see more support, the problem is you have established a pattern of ignoring results, so it's hard to imagine this time being any different.
 
It is noble that Anita's goal is to falsify woo with her magiscientifical thingy.
It is also a bit crazymaking that SHE is the woo being falsified by herself.
I guess my sense of humour has evaporated, however being a previous sufferer of migraines that magically disappeared even though a scientifical explanation was offered to me at the time I'm all for Anita winning the Nobel Prize.
After all, migraines can make you crazy with the pain.
 
Anita, you are getting close to the line here:

I am otherwise a 27-year old undergraduate student in chemistry and physics studying to become a doctor of ---

No, you are not studying to be a doctor of anything. You haven't even been admitted to a doctoral program yet, and haven't even graduated from a university. You should be very careful with what you write to regulatory agencies.
 
If a statistically significant majority of persons who receive a migraine treatment from me experience a coinciding and considerable improvement in their migraine condition, it becomes safe to assume that a future case is likely to experience the same, therefore the treatment option becomes viable and is concluded as useful and should be offered.

I am absolutely fascinated that a 27 year old science student would believe something like this.

You need to take some courses in methodology (see: the difference between correlation and causation) and logic (see: post hoc ergo propter hoc).
 

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