Veterinary homoeopathy illegal?

There's a big debate even in the medical profession about what's meant by the placebo effect, and does it even occur in humans. I think the two points are interlinked - depending on how you define it, it either exists or it doesn't. Psychology can be a complicated subject.

However, I think the vast majority of vets agree that so far as animals are concerned, any placebo effect is a proxy one. The idea that "something is being done" affects not the animals, but the people who are judging the condition of the animals, usually the owners.

You can argue all round the houses about whether it's legitimate to lie to a human patient in order, hopefully, for them to benefit from a placebo effect. However, it's very difficult to justify administering an inert substance to an animal simply to make the owner fee better.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
*snip*
You can argue all round the houses about whether it's legitimate to lie to a human patient in order, hopefully, for them to benefit from a placebo effect. However, it's very difficult to justify administering an inert substance to an animal simply to make the owner feel better.

Rolfe.
Except of course for the fact that most people own pets mainly for the owner's well-being. And of course farm animals are purely there for people's well-being ;).

... I suppose I'm a bit cynical....

Hans
 
How about Christopher Day, Peter Gregory and John Saxton who are the vet tutors at the Homeopathic Professionals Teaching Group that is linked to the Faculty of Homeopathy?

www.hptg.co.uk
 
How about them? Can you get them to talk to us?

When I tried asking the 'homeopathic' pharmacists (from that thread a while back) for a point of view all I got was deafening silence.

And I was polite.

I can be.

Sometimes.
 
This was in response to Barb's previous post when she asked if there were vets that practiced homeopathy exclusively. I think perhaps they might, but I really don't know.
 
Benguin said:
How about them? Can you get them to talk to us?
Oh, please don't! They talk far too much!

Here is an example.

Chris Day hasn't stuck his oar in, for reasons which are probably obvious if one knows the identity of the homoeopathic vet who was prosecuted for causing unnecessary suffering, as reported in the article which began that correspondence. (Oh, psychic gifts not required, he was named in the article.) Peter Gregory and John Saxton have been pretty vocal though.

Neither of them has ever claimed to use homoeopathy exclusively. To quote Peter Gregory....
Where orthodox therapy is unsuccessful or inappropriate, homoeopathy can provide immense benefits for our patients.
This certainly doesn't sound like one of the "use homoeopathy first" brigade.

And I have had the dubous privilege of access to a very long case record of one of Chris Day's patients. It was very sad and very upsetting, with its descriptions of the poor dog crying in pain all night bowdlerised to "squeaking". The drill seemed to be that when things got really bad, he'd try a little antibiotic, but then when the dog improved a bit, well now we can stop that nasty allopathy and get back to the nice homoeopathy. At which point the deterioration would set in again.

The only time I have ever heard a claim that a vet used homoeopathy exclusively was Wim's claim for Mr. MacLeod (who has been dead for several years, so we can't ask him). If he really did use nothing but homoeopathy, he must have been seeing very selected referral patients.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
And I have had the dubous privilege of access to a very long case record of one of Chris Day's patients. It was very sad and very upsetting, with its descriptions of the poor dog crying in pain all night bowdlerised to "squeaking". The drill seemed to be that when things got really bad, he'd try a little antibiotic, but then when the dog improved a bit, well now we can stop that nasty allopathy and get back to the nice homoeopathy. At which point the deterioration would set in again.

I'm normally a bit of a soppy liberal on law and order issues, but there are times a good solid public flogging seems entirely appropriate.

... he must have been seeing very selected referral patients.

As in the ones who aren't sick, I presume.
 
Benguin said:
As in the ones who aren't sick, I presume.
I've had a scan through the veterinary homoeopaths' claims, and found that both Richard Allport and Francis Hunter claim to use nothing but homoeopathy - or rather, "natural therapies" in Mr. Allport's case. (Beats me what's so natural about homoeopathy, though!)

Both, however, see only referred patients. And as Mr. Hunter is now at least 75, I doubt if he's seeing many.

I don't know about "not sick", but they'll be patients that aren't in serious need of real medicine, put it like that. (Or they'll be patients already on the real medicine, and the homoeopath will be adding a little bit of magic on top of it.)

Rolfe.
 
What would you consider to be a serious case in an animal, namely a dog? Is a CVA good enough?

If so, I have an extremely good case example that was seen and diagnosed by a conventional vet.
 
Sarah-I said:
Is a CVA good enough?
OK, it's irrelevant to the thread, but I'll bite.

What do you mean by CVA? (Remember, abbreviations in human medicine don't always translate to veterinary medicine.)

(And if she means what I think she means, first, you can't diagnose it with certainty in a dog without some very fancy diagnostic imaging, and second, the signs usually resolve on their own anyway.)

Rolfe.
 
Sarah-I said:
What would you consider to be a serious case in an animal, namely a dog? Is a CVA good enough?

If so, I have an extremely good case example that was seen and diagnosed by a conventional vet.

CVA? Cerebrovascular accident, I presume. If so, then you should know that they are extraordinarily uncommon in dogs. What dogs do get a lot is idiopathic vestibular syndrome, which ignorant owners and indefensibly stupid vets refquently call 'strokes'. I see these frequently. More than 90% of cases are more than 90% better after 2 weeks.

I usually give Stemetil for a few days if vomiting is severe, but my challenge to you is to guess my main medication modality.....
 
This dog collapsed and a vet was called. Her back legs collapsed and she could not walk at all. Her breathing was rasping and it was clear that she had fluid on her lungs. When the vet came and examined the dog, she said that she had had a stroke and said that she needed to be given a steroid injection and an antidiuretic injection immediately.

She was just lying there and was unable to walk. Her breathing was laboured, she did not want to drink and she was not passing any urie at all.

What would you diagnose that as then? In my book, it would all point to a stroke/CVA I think.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
CVA? Cerebrovascular accident, I presume. If so, then you should know that they are extraordinarily uncommon in dogs. What dogs do get a lot is idiopathic vestibular syndrome, which ignorant owners and indefensibly stupid vets refquently call 'strokes'. I see these frequently. More than 90% of cases are more than 90% better after 2 weeks.

I usually give Stemetil for a few days if vomiting is severe, but my challenge to you is to guess my main medication modality.....

Are you suggesting something that looks a lot like a stroke to the uneducated, but from which the patient will recover fully after a couple of weeks normal care and rest?

I think I see where this is going ...

Oh, and hi Sarah, I don't think I've said welcome back. You also disappeared for a while! Welcome back.
 
Sarah-I said:
This dog collapsed and a vet was called. Her back legs collapsed and she could not walk at all. Her breathing was rasping and it was clear that she had fluid on her lungs. When the vet came and examined the dog, she said that she had had a stroke and said that she needed to be given a steroid injection and an antidiuretic injection immediately.

She was just lying there and was unable to walk. Her breathing was laboured, she did not want to drink and she was not passing any urie at all.

What would you diagnose that as then? In my book, it would all point to a stroke/CVA I think.

Yes, well, like I said, CVA's are extraordinarily uncommon in dogs and I think you have confirmed me in that view.

Fortunately I'm not using your book!

"antidiuretic injection" Care to rephrase?

It's been a while since I've been here, but you claim to be a nurse don't you?
 
Benguin said:
Are you suggesting something that looks a lot like a stroke to the uneducated, but from which the patient will recover fully after a couple of weeks normal care and rest?

I think I see where this is going ...

Oh, and hi Sarah, I don't think I've said welcome back. You also disappeared for a while! Welcome back.

Well, since it does appear irrelevant to Sarah's dog's case, I'll let you in on the answer, I give no treatment.

Some vets give steroids, some give propentofylline. Some time ago I stopped giving anything other than to a minority that get Stemetil, and they get better over just the same time course.
 
When I was just a couple of years out of college, I was working as a holiday locum in Essex, while my parents, with my dog (a cocker spaniel who was about 14 at the time), were on holiday at our house on the island where my Dad was born. I received a worried phone call from my mother, telling me that Garry (the dog) had collapsed. She described a very marked head tilt to the left, and inability to walk.

I considered vestibular syndrome, as the likeliest thing on the probabilities, but the extent of the head tilt also made me wonder about a CVA. (OK, I was very young, looking back I guess vestibular syndrome was very much the preferred diagnosis, but my mother was convinced he'd had a stroke because the head tilt is such a pathognomonic indicator in man.)

The big snag was that there wasn't a vet on the island, and transport off the island to find one was problematic. I said I'd raid the drug cupboard where I was working, and decided that prednisolone and cover with a broad-spectrum antibiotic would be the best thing whichever diagnosis. (Pace, BSM, nobody had invented propentofylline at the time.) I also gave my Mum basic instructions about nursing care.

The thing was, the postal service between Essex and the Western Isles wasn't up to scratch that month. It took nearly a week for my little packet of prescription drugs to arrive. By the time they did, Garry was almost better. By the time I got home a month later he was showing absolutely no evidence at all that he'd been ill.

"CVA"? Yeah, right. Like I said, show me the MRI. Same as "heart attack". The times I've heard people say their pet had a heart attack! My cardiologist friends tell me that they do occur in dogs, very rarely indeed. I've never seen a case. But some vets do have a bad habit of describing a pet's illness in terms they think the owner will find familiar.

Sarah, did you think that telling us a heartwarming anecdote about how homoeopathy cured the poor doggie with a stroke would provide the conclusive answer to the VMD's ruling that using unapproved medicines outwith the cascade is unlawful, and that includes homoeopathy?

Don't be naïve. The treatment that started the argument was EDTA-tris for Pseudomonas infections in ears. I could quote you half a dozen good references testifying to its efficacy (dead easy, because the reference list for the article that drew the VMD's ire was on the back of the same page as Peter Gregory's preposterous homoeopathy article, and I tore it out and saved it). That's not the point. The point is that it's unlicensed. So is homoeopathy.

The difference is that I imagine someone will get a decent product licence application submitted for EDTA-tris before too much longer. Just a pity nobody can produce acceptable evidence for the efficacy of homoeopathy really.

And that's because single-patient anecdotes, especially poorly-understood ones where even the presumed diagnosis is probably wrong, aren't proof of anything. If they were, that skin/ear case of Chris Day's would be solid proof that homoeopathy is completely useless. How come you never like to tell us about the ones that don't go according to plan, Sarah?

Once again, you have to show us that actually taking your prescribd remedy gives you a better chance of getting better than if you didn't take it. So far, you've produced absolutely zero evidence on that one, I notice.

Rolfe.
 
If you think you are so very clever, then please answer me this one question? Have you ever known a dog get vestibular syndrome twice? If so have you ever known this scenario arise? The second time, the dog collapsed and could not walk at all. Breathing was extremely laboured and she could not hold her head up at all and had to be supported if she did. She would not drink at all of her own volution and had to be offered water to drink from a bowl taken up to ther mouth. She could not move at all by herself throughout the night and had to be turned by someone during the night to make her more comfortable. She was not passing any urine at all for a 24 hour period.

The next morning she could still not stand on her own and had to be carried into the garden in order to pee. She then appeared to improve for a week after this and was able to walk unaided, although quite unsteadily and not very far.

Following this week she then started to go downhill again and was coughing with laboured breathing. She then ate something and vomited it up and would then not eat anything else. She then became restless, could not walk again and her breathing was laboured too. In the end, she was just to weak to continue and could not fight anymore, so had to be put to sleep.

What is your diagnosis now? Still the same in light of what I have now told you. Have you known of dogs having to be put to sleep from having vestibular syndrome?
 
I'll let BSM deal with the specifics of that, if he wants to, as he's the one in general practice.

But Sarah, have you nothing to say but poorly-understood and poorly-documented single-patient anecdotes? This thread is about the legalities of veterinary surgeons choosing to use homoeopathic remedies under the cascade legislation in the UK. And all you can do is butt in with yet another shaggy dog story. And every time, this appears to be the only case of the condition in question which has responded to homoeopathy and guess what, all the others still have to rely on the usual stuff.

We can match you anecdote for anecdote, cases where homoepathic remedies did no good at all. But what does any of that have to do with the question of law which is the point of this thread?

Rolfe.
 

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