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Vegetarianism versus Veganism versus Meat Eating

I know that some people think the "animals killed to harvest crops" argument is the perfect argument, but it only holds up if you take an extreme, and dare I say strawman, position.

I don't think the argument is that good either, but I'm not sure it's a strawman per se. Veganism and vegetarianism are "extremes", that's basically how they are defined. I know (eta "knew")
a couple of vegetarians that "only eat chicken" and not only is that a little strange, but "vegetarians" tend to think it strange and a bit offensive. It really is about absolutes, at least in dietary choices. But when it comes to killing animals in pursuit of the vegetarian diet, well it's just about minimizing suffering.
It's a point to be made I suppose, but it really isn't the nail in the coffin the author seems to be making it.
 
I'm curious how successful their influencing has been.

Don't know right off hand. But the point is, promoting a diet that has as many vegetables as possible and moderate amount of anything else is a good thing. I wish I had the will power to eat mostly veggies most of the time, but sometimes it's easier and tastier to forgo the healthy stuff and just get some junk food.
 
Don't know right off hand. But the point is, promoting a diet that has as many vegetables as possible and moderate amount of anything else is a good thing. I wish I had the will power to eat mostly veggies most of the time, but sometimes it's easier and tastier to forgo the healthy stuff and just get some junk food.

Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age but I honestly wonder if being preachy is temporarily effective, but ultimately self defeating.
 
Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age but I honestly wonder if being preachy is temporarily effective, but ultimately self defeating.

I don't think you have to be preachy about something to promote it.
 
I don't think you have to be preachy about something to promote it.

In theory. In practice it seems to cross over into preaching a little too often. And I would also say it escalates when you get more radical, vegans I've found tend to be even more emphatic and prone to discussing their dietary habits with people.
For me it was just something I did. If pressed I would justify it, but I don't think it's for everyone. I offered suggestion for dishes and pretty much left it at that.
 
I'm curious why you assert that there's "unsupportable equivalence between animals and humans.". If you consider mammals, much of our physiology is quite similar. Surely mentally we are quite different. But physically, not so much.

How does similar physiology affect rights?
 
I started reading the article, but ended up skimming most of it because the author seems to be ignoring a very obvious point.

Sure, some animals do end up being killed or suffering as an unintended side-effect of horticulture. But what he's overlooking is that far fewer animals end up being killed or suffering than if the same land was being used to raise animals for slaughter.

It's obvious that you didn't read the whole thing then. Go back and read it in it's entirety. He addresses this multiple times.

Okay, I'll play along. I'll read through it all and try and find where he addresses the issue...

So now it’s not just suffering reduction, it’s that animals have rights. But if it’s wrong to kill an animal because it has rights, how do we justify the deaths of animals in plant agriculture? Not only are animals accidentally killed in the production of crops (ground up by wheat threshers, poisoned from pesticide runoff, or unable to survive because their habitat has been destroyed), they are intentionally killed as well. “Pest” animals are poisoned and shot to protect crops. What happened to their sentience, the basis of their rights? Once they got in our way, they stopped having interests and a capacity for pain?

Nope, that doesn't address it. Nowhere does he suggest that the animals killed in this way come close to the numbers killed when animals are specifically raised for slaughter.

1. These rights violations are “necessary.” It is impossible to eat without killing animals, and we need to eat something, therefore it is okay to kill animals for crops. This begs the question. If it’s okay to kill animals if you must do so in order to eat, why is it okay to kill animals so we can eat vegetables, but it is not okay to kill animals so we can eat meat?

Nope, that doesn't do it either. He still hasn't compared the quantity of animals killed or made to suffer.

2. The intent/accident argument. The intent argument states that yes, you must kill animals in order to eat vegetables, but it’s okay for animals to die due to the destruction of their habitats, pesticide runoff into the water, or getting caught in harvesting machines as long as those deaths are not our intended end.

Unfortunately, this works for meat eaters too. Meat eaters don’t necessarily want to kill animals. It just so happens that you must kill animals in order to eat meat. Since meat is the intended end, not the killing of animals, it is okay to eat meat.

Nope, still no comparison of quantity of killing/suffering.

3. “In the more enlightened future, when most people are vegan, it will be possible to avoid all or most animal deaths in crop production. But for now, since it’s too difficult for me to live up to my own high standards, I can violate the same rights that I criticize you for violating.” This is nothing but a confession to immorality and hypocrisy with a flippant rationalization tacked on. And it’s another argument that works for non-vegans too.

The issue still hasn't been addressed.

4. “Nobody claimed veganism was perfect, so why critique veganism for violating rights and causing harm?” This would be like a human rights advocate murdering someone or accidentally running over someone and then saying “Well, nobody said human rights are perfect. At least I kill fewer humans than some other people I know.” This is another appeal to harm reduction and makes no sense from a rights perspective.

This almost touches on the point, but still fails to address it by focusing on animal rights instead of harm reduction.

Too bad suffering reduction doesn’t work as a justification for veganism as a minimum standard of decency either. One flaw is that if suffering is your whipping boy, this permits the slaughtering of animals so long as it is painless or nearly painless. For instance, it is possible to instantaneously knock a pig unconscious by hitting it on the head with the butt of an ax, and then drain it of blood while it is knocked out. If suffering is all you’re worried about, isn’t this okay? A vegan might say, “What about the emotional pain of the pigs left behind who miss their friend?” Okay, then, painlessly kill them too.

Naturally vegans try to get around this by saying, “Wait, you can’t do that because it’s not suffering that matters but animal rights.”

Not really addressing the issue, merely dismissing the "suffering reduction" argument out of hand under the assumption that slaughtering animals is mostly a suffering-free process. He ignores the point that some people may simply object to the unnecessary killing of animals, even if they don't suffer.

So no, point not addressed

Looking through the entire article, his point of view on "harm reduction" seems to be centered on suffering (and dismissed on the assumption that there is no suffering involved in killing them).

Nowhere in the article does he address the position of not eating meat simply for the sake of reducing the quantity of unnecessary animal deaths and suffering, except to point out that even a vegetarian diet will still result in some animal deaths and suffering.

Your assertion that he addresses this point multiple times appears to be entirely unfounded.

EDIT:

Personally, I eat meat and see nothing wrong with killing animals if suffering is kept to the minimum. My only axe to grind here is that his argument against vegetarianism has a great gaping void in it.

Mildly annoying that he doesn't seem to be aware of the distinction between vegetarianism and veganism (he describes vegans as exploiting cows to harvest their milk). And by his use of "plant agriculture", the word "horticulture" seems to be missing from his vocabulary.
 
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Saying "because it tastes good" isn't exactly critical thinking, but I think it cuts to the quick. We're the top predator and we eat what we like.


That's really not the point.

The simple truth is that we humans, for optimum strength and health, require proteins and nutrients that are difficult to obtain from non-meat sources. The easiest and cheapest way to get these nutrients is by eating meat.

It is possible to obtain proper nutrition from a vegetarian diet, but it is neither easy nor cheap to do so.

We are omnivores. We require a range of nutrients that don't readily come from just one type of source. If we eat a diet that includes a balanced amount of meat and vegetables, we will do fine. If we eat a diet that omits one or the other of these categories, we will be missing some important nutrients.
 
That's really not the point.

The simple truth is that we humans, for optimum strength and health, require proteins and nutrients that are difficult to obtain from non-meat sources. The easiest and cheapest way to get these nutrients is by eating meat.

It is possible to obtain proper nutrition from a vegetarian diet, but it is neither easy nor cheap to do so.

We are omnivores. We require a range of nutrients that don't readily come from just one type of source. If we eat a diet that includes a balanced amount of meat and vegetables, we will do fine. If we eat a diet that omits one or the other of these categories, we will be missing some important nutrients.

I don't think that's true. I believe soya beans and tofu provide the required protein and are much cheaper by mass.
I never had a problem as a vegetarian and got the required nutrients but ate a LOT of cheese.
 
It's obvious that you didn't read the whole thing then. Go back and read it in it's entirety. He addresses this multiple times.

For some reason this flashed up in my brain:

Homer: Mr. Ploot, Homer Simpson here. When you sold me this house, you forgot to mention one little thing. You didn't tell me it was built on an Indian burial ground! (Pause) No, you didn't! (Pause) Well, that's not my recollection! (Pause) Yeah? Well, all right, goodbye!
(Homer hangs up the phone and turns to his family.)
Homer: He says he mentioned it five or six times.


Read more: http://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/shows/the-simpsons/season-2/page-16.html#ixzz1UQiEhuFD

[/derail]
 
This bit just seems weird:
Essentially, the author argues that people do not become vegans because they want to reduce suffering; if that were the case, all you would have to do is say no to one Slim Jim in your life and you've reduced suffering. The vegan is committed to a rights approach which says that animals have rights. However, even the vegan cannot avoid causing suffering to animals unless they commit suicide, an option all sides will consider extreme. The vegan, he argues, unintentionally kills animals in the process of harvesting crops.
People do not give to charity to reduce suffering; if that were the case, they could give tuppence to Oxfam once in their life and reduce suffering. But the charity-giver cannot maximally reduce suffering without giving away all his worldly goods and living in penury, an option all sides will consider extreme.
 
Couple of points. And I'll undoubtedly take some flack for them. I'm prepared for that.

First. Personally, I find many vegans and some vegetarians (of course, not all!) to be annoyingly evangelistic. I have a work colleague who has a poster up by her desk which reads 'Save a life - go vegetarian' and I've seen bumper stickers expressing a similar sentiment. And that's not even counting the 'meat is murder' types. Not all vegans and veges are like this, but it does exist. I saw Peter Singer speak at the Global Atheist Convention in March 2010, and even though his talk had absolutely nothing to do with vegetarianism, he couldn't resist sneaking in one reference to his firm conviction that non-vegetarians cannot be ethical.

Second. Bob Blaylock almost makes a good argument here. We do require a certain amount of proteins and fats that animal products provide. We have millions of years of evolution as omnivores behind us. However, it is very true that in an affluent, developed society such as most of us live in, all of these nutrients can be gained from non-animal sources. The issue here is that we live in such an affluent society, but millions of others don't. Meat is a fast and easy source of the required nutrients. On the opposite side of that coin, the Jains (among others) have abstained from meat for centuries, and don't seem the worse for wear for it. They're not exactly an affluent community.

Last. Imagine for a moment that the world that Peter Singer and some of his 'disciples' envision actually comes true, and the world's population goes completely vegetarian. What happens to all the cows, pigs and chickens that have been bred for thousands of generations to be meat sources?

I have a number of reasons for remaining non-vegetarian, and most of them are selfish. They pretty much boil down to this: vegetarianism is hard. Omnivory is the default in our society, and you generally have to go out of your way to eat vege. Your average restaurant has vegetarian options - unless they're specifically a vegetarian restaurant, in which case they go out of their way to advertise that fact in order to appeal to that demographic. It's a lot easier and more straightforward to eat a balanced diet that includes a moderate amount of meat.
 
I really don't think I've ever heard any of this 'preaching' and evangelism from vegetarians, and I have known, and do know, quite a lot of them. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but it just doesn't seem to be common around here. I think most vegetarians I've known are such for what you would call ethical reasons, in that they just don't want animals to be killed for their food. I don't see how anyone can argue against this (aside from trotting out what always feels to me like a naturalistic fallacy), and it rather surprises me that they aren't more evangelistic if anything, since if you actually feel that it's 'wrong' to kill animals for food, I would think there would be a moral imperative to spread that to others, but I just don't hear it, presumably because they're adult enough to realize that if others shared their beliefs, they would already be vegetarian.

I wouldn't say I've heard evangelising, as such, in the other direction, but I know that vegetarians often have to put up with constant teasing and cajoling to eat meat, as well as frequent questioning as to why they eat as they do. I suspect most vegetarians have also had the experience of someone coming up with ludicrous hypotheticals along the lines of "what if you were stuck on a desert island with just a herd of pigs for food? Ah, so eating meat isn't necessarily wrong! etc..." I have also known meat eaters who will serve meat to vegetarians or dairy to vegans and tell them that it is veggy, presumably on the basis that what they don't know can't hurt them.
 
I really don't think I've ever heard any of this 'preaching' and evangelism from vegetarians, and I have known, and do know, quite a lot of them. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but it just doesn't seem to be common around here. I think most vegetarians I've known are such for what you would call ethical reasons, in that they just don't want animals to be killed for their food. I don't see how anyone can argue against this (aside from trotting out what always feels to me like a naturalistic fallacy), and it rather surprises me that they aren't more evangelistic if anything, since if you actually feel that it's 'wrong' to kill animals for food, I would think there would be a moral imperative to spread that to others, but I just don't hear it, presumably because they're adult enough to realize that if others shared their beliefs, they would already be vegetarian.

I wouldn't say I've heard evangelising, as such, in the other direction, but I know that vegetarians often have to put up with constant teasing and cajoling to eat meat, as well as frequent questioning as to why they eat as they do. I suspect most vegetarians have also had the experience of someone coming up with ludicrous hypotheticals along the lines of "what if you were stuck on a desert island with just a herd of pigs for food? Ah, so eating meat isn't necessarily wrong! etc..." I have also known meat eaters who will serve meat to vegetarians or dairy to vegans and tell them that it is veggy, presumably on the basis that what they don't know can't hurt them.

The behavior you describe is obviously childish and wrong so I won't comment on it much beyond that, and I have little problem with someone who chooses vegetarianism for health reasons. What has been described as "evangelizing" from vegetarians/vegans, for me, comes from groups such as PETA that, if they ran the world, would outlaw all meat products whether the rest of us liked it or not. This comes out especially in a debate such as the foie gras thread where one of the participants admits that it wouldn't matter for them how humane the farm was, they still want it banned on the basis that it's meat.

The episode of The Simpsons where Lisa becomes a vegetarian comes to mind when she tries to force vegetarianism on all around her but gets less that enthusiastic responses. This is what I believe PETA do. They really don't care about the cruelty issues per se since they want to outlaw meat eating altogether. The cruelty issues, however, bring people in on the ground floor who might, under other circumstances, not oppose meat eating per se.
 
Whatever the stance on meat eating, I think comments like the ones The Central Scrutinizer and shemp have posted right at the beginning of this thread, are a bad call on a critical thinking forum. Reminds me of something Homer or the dumb cops from The Simpsons might say...Not to say I don't agree on some meat tasting good. But as a response to a genuine attempt at engaging in critical conversation about meat eating/not eating meat...

What "critical conversation"? I like cheeseburgers. Ergo, I eat cheeseburgers. End of "conversation".
 
I really don't think I've ever heard any of this 'preaching' and evangelism from vegetarians, and I have known, and do know, quite a lot of them.


I hear echos of another social debate here ... "gays are always pushing their sexuality in everyones' face."

I think this is a matter of a majority who take for granted how saturated society is with their point of view, so when a minority opinion is heard, it's jarring and interpreted as being "in your face."

Just watch a little TV and you'll see near pornographic depictions of meat sizzling on a grill and people in orgasmic ecstasy as they fork flesh into their mouths. We're exposed to that kind of imagery regularly.

But breathe a word about vegetarianism and all of a sudden you're "holier than thou" ... "evangelizing" ... "in everybody's face" ... "pushing your agenda."

People are oblivious to the fact that the other "agenda" has been pushed so thoroughly into the culture that they don't even recognize it any more.
 
The moral argument about meat make not much sense. For one it is very very obviously culturally related and not that obviously unethical to use meat as food. For two if you think we haven't heard that argument 1000 time before, and we did not think about it, then you(*) are just fooling yourself(*).
(*) impersonal you/yourself as anybody proselytizing meat-as-food=immoral.

Thus i can understand scrut being very curt : it is not as if there has been *new* argument on that front.

That leave maybe the efficiency argument, and that argument has absolutely no teeth when you realize that no veg food which would be produced by replacing all cow pasture as wheat field would go to the people which need them, or even really help them in the fundamental problem they face (political problem and population density problem). Changing a field from a cow pasture in rural France to beans or wheat, will not change a *iota* to the number of people not being fed, in say, pakistan, somalia, or india.

The resource argument would make sense if we as human we pooled our resource and shared equitably that food. Then it would make sense. But we are not doing this. And we offer our food resource only in exchange from other resource (in our case fiat money). Therefore whether we produce more beef or more wheat has not much bearing on your india somalia farmer.


On the contrary : as far as I can remember western country producing more wheat and giving it as aid would only damage local farmer in other country, and worsen the food problem. Swamping the international market with our subsidized wheat and vegs does not seem to help either, but rather make other country dependent of us.
 
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I wouldn't say I've heard evangelising, as such, in the other direction, but I know that vegetarians often have to put up with constant teasing and cajoling to eat meat, as well as frequent questioning as to why they eat as they do. I suspect most vegetarians have also had the experience of someone coming up with ludicrous hypotheticals along the lines of "what if you were stuck on a desert island with just a herd of pigs for food? Ah, so eating meat isn't necessarily wrong! etc..." I have also known meat eaters who will serve meat to vegetarians or dairy to vegans and tell them that it is veggy, presumably on the basis that what they don't know can't hurt them.
This is a very good point.
 
I hear echos of another social debate here ... "gays are always pushing their sexuality in everyones' face."

I think this is a matter of a majority who take for granted how saturated society is with their point of view, so when a minority opinion is heard, it's jarring and interpreted as being "in your face."

Just watch a little TV and you'll see near pornographic depictions of meat sizzling on a grill and people in orgasmic ecstasy as they fork flesh into their mouths. We're exposed to that kind of imagery regularly.

But breathe a word about vegetarianism and all of a sudden you're "holier than thou" ... "evangelizing" ... "in everybody's face" ... "pushing your agenda."

People are oblivious to the fact that the other "agenda" has been pushed so thoroughly into the culture that they don't even recognize it any more.

Culture might have a small part in it, but nobody need advertising to have the umami/savoury receptor being triggered by a good steak. heck the reason most of the world don't eat meat, is due to *lack* of availability of it, not out of moral reason.

You are underestimating strongly the attractiveness to your average human of a good meat properly cooked.
 

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