Vedic Astrology : Open Thread

[ManLondon]

Possibly they could have found out something about the subject while they are questioning them in order to establish their "rectified birth time". Or perhaps you think that they would somehow forget anything they've been told between establishing the "rectified birth time" and giving the reading based on it?

Bugger! I just typed a very detailed answer and lost it when I clicked on "Preview Post". Lets see how much I remember now.

The whole idea of rectified birth time is that Vedic Astrologers ask clients very specific questions about their life. Then based on this information, they look into the short time window of possible birth time, and try to establish which planetary combination would have influenced those events. Thus arriving at a planetary combination by process of elimination. Once they have the planetary combination, they arrive at the birth time corresponding to this combination. It may seem simple, but it a very time consuming process because of the number of combinations that they have to go through.

Now, rectification is totally optional and not hugely popular. If you tell a Vedic Astrologer that you are reasonably sure about the birth time, they wont ask any questions.

If you were to suggest using one astrologer to establish the birth time and another to give the reading, then this gives the second astrologer an "out" if his reading doesn't fit the subject; he can just say that the first astrologer didn't establish the time correctly. And then we just go back round the same argument again.

It is optional and not hugely popular. Not many people go into birth rectification.

And, please don't take this personally, but "trust me on this one" isn't good enough. It's not a question of whether or not we trust you. It's a question of removing from the equation any other means by which the infomation could be obtained other than the method they are stating they use.

No mate, I uderstand what you are saying when you say that it is not enough.
I wanted to stress that I am so sure about it and wanted to save on typing. I would still say that you may spend endless time investigating this
to find otherwise, but you would still get the same answer what I said.
- barring few charlatans, maybe.

Anyway, here is long answer:

(1) You can find out for yourself, but millions of people will tell you that it is extremely rare for a Vedic Astrologer to ask person questions about the native when horoscope is asked. Only information they have is "date-time and place of birth and name." Address, if clients want horoscope to be posted.

(2) Majority of cases, parents ask a Vedic Astrologer for a horoscope of their children, within months they were born. So Vedic Astrologers cannot ask few months old child, what he does for living or what he plans to do with his life. Parents can plan or think about their children's lives but can never be sure enough to predict their life with specific dates.

Even if 1% Vedic Astrologers did try to get sublime information, then this wont be considerable information, given above facts.

(3) Anyone can test it for themselves. Enter your birth details (date-time and place of birth) in two or n number of Vedic Astrological sites. Some sites, ask for name, email or address also. You can keep on changing the rest of the details while keeping the date-time and place of birth same. You will get same horoscope, future planetary positions same from all of them. The forecasts can be bit different or less or more specific based on the Vedic Astrologer's experience and time spent.

Which proves that other information is not used in the calculations.

(4) You can try few Vedic Astrological websites on the net. Based on birth details, these can draw horoscope and predictions in few seconds.
How is it possible to get information in 5 seconds? When all you have entered is birth details?

Bit personal, my parents got my horoscope done from a Vedic Astrologer when I was few months old. Few years ago, I read it. Donot remember much from it, it, probably, is still with my parents.
Anyway, 2 specific forecasts I remember till date. Because, one of them, few years ago, I was hoping wont be true and second one I was so sure that it wont be true. Both of them were specific and with the year of forecasted events mentioned.

Few years ago, I got a chance to read them again, and noticed that one of them had turned out to be true but thought that second one has not turned out to be true. But now(few months back) , I closer to the second event, I can certainly say that it has came true as well.

These were forecasted when I was born and certainly something which could not have been drawn from whatever my parents might have said (assuming 1% he did get sublime information).

What do you make out it?

Now the question which I had asked earlier as well and I am intrigued to know the answer:

Can you please tell me how is it simple to find out about past events if all you know is date-time and place of birth.

 

[Beleth]

When does your son turn 18? Can you not please convince your stepfather to disclose the horoscope any time soon. I am extremely excited to hear your opinions. Please!

Unfortunately, he's only 5 now.

 

[Mojo]

Can you please tell me how is it simple to find out about past events if all you know is date-time and place of birth.

I had assumed that you were talking about "backcasting" from a rectified birth time, because your suggestion that using backcasting would be a good way of testing astrologers followed on immediately from my reply to this post:

They claim that with the rectified or correct birth time, they can forecast and backcast the events.

I also assumed that this meant that they would have met and spoken to the subject, because that is how you said an astrologer arrives at a rectified birth time.


OK, with just a time, date and place (i.e. no name, for example) there are still ways to find out more information. If I were to give someone my time and place of birth, they might be able to investigate me using that. They could try to find out how many people were born in that particular hospital at that particular time and start from there.

Even without any more specific information, they could make a guess at someone's social background from where and when they were born.

Apply Occam's razor. We know that people are capable of investigation. There is no reason to propose that astrology works (in defiance of what we know about how much effect distant bodies have on us) if there is a simpler explanation.


Edited to add: I notice on reading your post again that they do have more information than just date, time and place of birth. They have the subject's name, and possibly their address as well:

Originally posted by Manlondon
Only information they have is "date-time and place of birth and name." Address, if clients want horoscope to be posted.

 

[ManLondon]

OK, with just a time, date and place (i.e. no name, for example) there are still ways to find out more information. If I were to give someone my time and place of birth, they might be able to investigate me using that. They could try to find out how many people were born in that particular hospital at that particular time and start from there.

Even without any more specific information, they could make a guess at someone's social background from where and when they were born.

Sorry mate, but I have to say that you are totally off here.
Consider these:

An Astrologer sitting a remote village, who does horoscope for as little as £20, will hire a team of investigators to know a person before it does the forecasts? How much do you think the investigation will cost?
Will invetigators find out future events as well? Will invetigators find out about future events of few months old baby? These astrologers will have to have a very wide and advanced level of network of hospitals to find out the hospital you were born. That too, provided the hospital staff will give away that information on so many people. Note that Vedic Astrologers donot expect you to provide the name of hospital, not that it matters to them anyway.
What about people who donot have email accounts? Who have not used computers ever?

How about websites that provide forecasts in few seconds?

Apply Occam's razor. We know that people are capable of investigation. There is no reason to propose that astrology works (in defiance of what we know about how much effect distant bodies have on us) if there is a simpler explanation.

Apply this theorem to the above facts, you will notice which has more variables.

Edited to add: I notice on reading your post again that they do have more information than just date, time and place of birth. They have the subject's name, and possibly their address as well:

Like I had previously posted few times, changing the rest of the details does not affect your horoscope on these sites.
That is exactly what intrigues me can you tell me how and what kind of information can you find out by just knowing birth details. Can you do specific backcasts and forecasts?

I suggest again that you try the following:

(3) Anyone can test it for themselves. Enter your birth details (date-time and place of birth) in two or n number of Vedic Astrological sites. Some sites, ask for name, email or address also. You can keep on changing the rest of the details while keeping the date-time and place of birth same. You will get same horoscope, future planetary positions same from all of them. The forecasts can be bit different or less or more specific based on the Vedic Astrologer's experience and time spent.

Which proves that other information is not used in the calculations.

(4) You can try few Vedic Astrological websites on the net. Based on birth details, these can draw horoscope and predictions in few seconds.
How is it possible to get information in 5 seconds? When all you have entered is birth details?

Please donot get the impression that I am saying that I am 100% sure about the validity of Vedic Astrology. Whether the forecasts are true or false and its validity is something we are trying to get to.
But do you still seriously think that these guys use investigators to do forecasts? It is bit funny and wrong assumption, if you ask me.

 

[Garrette]

I'll take the chance to reiterate in different form what has been said many times in many ways on this forum.

The fact that “millions” will swear they gave no information to the Vedic astrologer other than the birth date and time is meaningless.

Cold readers and magicians thrive on the audience’s inability to recall with accuracy what happened and what the subject provided without realizing it.

Facial expressions in response to statements of the astrologer, hand movements to clasp a necklace at the mention of a loved one’s name, intonation when asked “Does that make sense?”, and even saying “Yes” and “No” to direct questions are commonplace methods of imparting information which the subject promptly forgets and denies.

 

[JLam]

ManLondon,
Do you remember when we were doing the experiments with the website? Remember that if we kept plugging in different information, we would eventually be presented with different sections of horoscope that were identical to each other?

Do you allow for the possibility that there are simply a few hundred, or a few thousand scripts programmed into the website, and they're programmed to get spit out in a certain order depending on the birth place and birth time? Do you think that's possible? I'm not asking you if you think that it's happening. I'm asking you if you think that it's possible?

That's why I think it's easy to pull up these forecasts in 5 seconds. There are a bunch of preprogrammed scripts (probably a few hundred) and they're assembled by the computer depending on the birth place and time information that's entered.

That would explain why none of the horoscopes give any sort of gender specific information. The scripts need to apply to people of both genders.

 

[ManLondon]

I'll take the chance to reiterate in different form what has been said many times in many ways on this forum.

The fact that “millions” will swear they gave no information to the Vedic astrologer other than the birth date and time is meaningless.

Cold readers and magicians thrive on the audience’s inability to recall with accuracy what happened and what the subject provided without realizing it.

Facial expressions in response to statements of the astrologer, hand movements to clasp a necklace at the mention of a loved one’s name, intonation when asked “Does that make sense?”, and even saying “Yes” and “No” to direct questions are commonplace methods of imparting information which the subject promptly forgets and denies.

The reason I get so very excited anytime I hear from people who have experienced Vedic Astrologers, is because most of the people who have contributed to this so far, have no clue what a session (personal, telephone, email or website) with Vedic Astrologers is.

Maybe closest thet ever got was pyschics and they, maybe, base their assumptions on them and think it would be same kind questions, suggestions, sublime information and all that.

Either they should experience it first hand or hear from people who have.

Your assumptions above make absoloute sense in the case of pyschics, but not in the case of Vedic Astrologers. It is nothing like a session of questioning and suggesting back. I know it, mate.

I will repeat myself. People leave their birth details and pick up their written (in overwhelming majority of cases) horoscope and forecasts.
Where does the necklace or the sublime information come here?

Either Vedic Astrology is valid or it is invalid. There is no sublime information or suggestions or questions like pyshics. There are no private investigation it. I can challenge anyone on this one.

 

[Mojo]

An Astrologer sitting a remote village, who does horoscope for as little as £20, will hire a team of investigators to know a person before it does the forecasts? How much do you think the investigation will cost?

We aren't talking about an astrologer in a remote village, were talking about designing an experiment to test Vedic astrology, and making sure that we eliminate any means they could get the information other than astrology.

Will invetigators find out future events as well? Will invetigators find out about future events of few months old baby?

We're talking specifically bout whether "backcasting" is appropriate to use in a test.

These astrologers will have to have a very wide and advanced level of network of hospitals to find out the hospital you were born. That too, provided the hospital staff will give away that information on so many people. Note that Vedic Astrologers donot expect you to provide the name of hospital, not that it matters to them anyway.

I thought they needed to know a reasonably accurate time and place of birth.

What about people who donot have email accounts? Who have not used computers ever?

Information about them still exists. And, as I said, from just time and place of birth, it is quite possible to guess something about a subject's social background. From this it would be reasonably easy for a skilled reader to make some "predictions" that are quite likely to fit someone of that age and background.

How about websites that provide forecasts in few seconds?

How accurate are they? As accurate as the ones you've provided for Ryokan and JLam, which JLam described as having "turned out terribly"?

Apply this theorem to the above facts, you will notice which has more variables.

Testing the astrologer on "backcasting" introduces the possibility that he is using means other than astrology to obtain information. It should not therefore be used to test astrology unless, of course, that is all they claim to be able to do.

Like I had previously posted few times, changing the rest of the details does not affect your horoscope on these sites.
That is exactly what intrigues me can you tell me how and what kind of information can you find out by just knowing birth details. Can you do specific backcasts and forecasts?

Again, how accurate were they? If they were just producing equally inaccurate results whatever details you put in...

I suggest again that you try the following:

Originally Posted by ManLondon
(3) Anyone can test it for themselves. Enter your birth details (date-time and place of birth) in two or n number of Vedic Astrological sites....

If you want people to do this, perhaps you should provide the url for the site that you claim provides good results. Or for any other site you think is reliable. I wouldn't want to waste time getting a reading from an unreliable site.

Please donot get the impression that I am saying that I am 100% sure about the validity of Vedic Astrology. Whether the forecasts are true or false and its validity is something we are trying to get to.
But do you still seriously think that these guys use investigators to do forecasts? It is bit funny and wrong assumption, if you ask me.

I don't know. But if you want to carry out a properly conclusive test you have to rule out the possibility.

 

[bagtaggar]

ManLondon, can you please address the physical mechanism behind Vedic Astrology?

It doesn't really matter if it's western or vedic, I've made this statement earlier, I'd like to hear it addressed by you. The point is, both rely on the motion of planets, and both imply there is a connection.

I'm asking you to make that connection, and if you can't, explain how you think an astrologer, vedic or otherwise, would make that connection.

Remember, millions of people swear by western astrology too. There's really no difference at the core, and it doesn't really matter how the astrologer gets to the conclusions, the assumption that planets affect your life in specific, observable ways that trump all scientific knowledge is fallacious, and it narrows down the possibilities of what is actually happening very quickly.

Please, ManLondon, for your own sake, think about this.

 

[EHocking]

Thanks Ehocking.

I started looking into this thread lost my interest in the first post itself. Because I know from this opening post that Pete was not talking about Vedic (Indian) Astrology. I am trying to get Vedic Astrology tested.

From what I've seen of the two, there is little difference between Western astrology and Vedic as far as their "theory" goes.
Also, the results are the same, as far as I've seen.

I was not convinced with his version at all, if I was able to understand his version at all. There were no dates, no specific forecasts and dividing the people in just three categories seemed too broad.

I think your scoreboard was impressive and shows your analytical abilities.

I have done the same with two of the sites posted in this thread (as you suggested) and have got similar results.

I've basically got to the stage where I treat ALL "astrologies" with the same disdain. This is not merely based on my sceptical bias, but on 10 years of observing that the "astrologies" I've come across don't do as they boast.

I'm willing to change my view in the future, given some convincing evidence, but that evidence put forward so far in this thread hasn't excited me into looking at the Vedic flavour of "astrology" with a less jaundiced eye than at any of the others.

 

[Garrette]

The reason I get so very excited anytime I hear from people who have experienced Vedic Astrologers, is because most of the people who have contributed to this so far, have no clue what a session (personal, telephone, email or website) with Vedic Astrologers is.

The reason I get so very excited when I hear people continuing to espouse the wonderful accuracy of a specious profession is because most of the people who do so refuse to pay attention to what they are saying and refuse to acknowledge inconsistencies and inaccuracies even when pointed out.

You are correct in assuming I have not had a session with a Vedic astrologer.

You will forgive me, though, for saying pish tosh to your implication that I have no idea what I’m talking about.

Your assertions about what is needed and what sessions are like have been less than elucidating and a bit contradictory.

You were introduced to an astrologer through your father; that is not “no information being provided.”

You have said that exact birth time is important as well as location, but you have said astrologers give readings without knowing the exact birth time or the location.

You have said that astrologers can determine the birth time based on reading palms; hogwash. Show me where this is demonstrated.

You have said that astrologers can determine the time of birth by seeing which reading fits the sitter best. Hogwash. Even if they can determine the times (and there exist exactly zero demonstrations of this claim), this is not a predictive ability, but a retroactive one.

closest thet ever got was pyschics and they, maybe, base their assumptions on them and think it would be same kind questions, suggestions, sublime information and all that.

Partly. And I will retain that assumption until it is demonstrated otherwise.

But there is also sitter fitting (look up the Forer Effect). There are faulty memories.

There is lying.

All of the above have been demonstrated with rigor repeatedly.

What has most definitely NOT been demonstrated with any vigor, rigor, or repetition is the claim you are making about Vedic astrologers.

Either they should experience it first hand or hear from people who have.

Nonsense: You have experienced it first hand. You said so. If I am mistaken and you have not, then this criticism applies to you, too. Stop talking about something you haven’t experienced.

Your assumptions above make absoloute sense in the case of pyschics, but not in the case of Vedic Astrologers. It is nothing like a session of questioning and suggesting back. I know it, mate.

Then retract your previous criticism about me not knowing what I’m talking about.

And also remove the inconsistencies within your accounts and claims.

I will repeat myself. People leave their birth details and pick up their written (in overwhelming majority of cases) horoscope and forecasts.

1. This is not what you did personally, iirc.

2. This is not consistent with your accounts that the astrologers can determine the actual, corrected, birth time based on feedback about the accuracy of the reading.

3. If this is true, please answer my long ago question regarding how the majority of these people know the exact time of their birth.

Where does the necklace or the sublime information come here?

1. They were examples.

2. They don’t if the readings actually happen this way. I note that you only switched to this version after being unable to answer the questions of people here.

3. Note how the Vedic websites which have been given this information and no feedback by people on this forum have proven wildly inaccurate.

Either Vedic Astrology is valid or it is invalid.

Ayup. And the onus is on the proponents of VA to demonstrate its validity. They have spectacularly failed to do so.

There is no sublime information or suggestions or questions like pyshics.

Again I note you changed to this “Distant Submission of Birth Data” version after being unable to answer questions first posed in this thread.

Your personal encounter did not occur in this fashion.

There are no private investigation it. I can challenge anyone on this one.

Challenge away. Personally, I do not believe investigations are necessary to account for the apparent success of any astrologers, Vedic or otherwise. However, to declare it out of the question as you fervently do is naïve and demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of human nature, history, and science.

 

[ManLondon]

[/color]

Then retract your previous criticism about me not knowing what I’m talking about.

Easy tiger! I did not criticise you or use any foul language for you.
Though I quoted your posted but really my post was in response to last few posts in the forum which I thought were off.

Mate, I apologise, if you felt bad about my post, I really didnot criticise you.

 

[ManLondon]

Please, ManLondon, for your own sake, think about this.

Thanks bagtaggar for your concern. I need to test it for myself. I need to find out, for sure, one way or another.

 

[bagtaggar]

Can you address the issues both Garette and I (and everyone else) have presented then?

If you want to test it out for yourself, that's a great place to start.

 

[ManLondon]

From what I've seen of the two, there is little difference between Western astrology and Vedic as far as their "theory" goes.
Also, the results are the same, as far as I've seen.

I have done the same with two of the sites posted in this thread (as you suggested) and have got similar results.

You mean you found same results from Vedic and Western Astrology? Could you possibly suggest a Western Astrology website? My impression is based only on one or two books that I read on Western Astrology many years ago.

 

[ManLondon]

ManLondon, can you please address the physical mechanism behind Vedic Astrology?

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean to ask what Vedic Astrological calculations are based on?

 

[bagtaggar]

Yes.

I'd like to see a relationship between, say, observing Jupiter, the big red gas planet millions of miles from the Sun, and specific, subjective, human emotions, experiences and behaviors.

 

[ManLondon]

Yes.

I'd like to see a relationship between, say, observing Jupiter, the big red gas planet millions of miles from the Sun, and specific, subjective, human emotions, experiences and behaviors.

I have no clue. Using left brain (if I have one), it certainly does not make any sense to me that planets so far away can direct any influence on human health, future, behaviour, fortunes or misfortunes.
It sound totally absurd.

Having said that, I want to give it a chance, explore it and find out, beyond any doubt.

Two possible cases: Either Vedic Astrology is rubbish and invalid. In this case, my life stays as it is and I will know who not to listen to.

But in case, it is valid, thinking of its impressive powers.

 

[Garrette]

Easy tiger! I did not criticise you or use any foul language for you.
Though I quoted your posted but really my post was in response to last few posts in the forum which I thought were off.

Mate, I apologise, if you felt bad about my post, I really didnot criticise you.

No need for an apology. I haven't read the rest of your post yet as I felt this deserved an immediate response.

My post was firm and blunt, but I assure you I have not been offended or hurt. Nor have I intended to offend you. I was taking you at your earlier word that you don't mind a verbal tussle (my paraphrase).

So have at it. And smiles all round.

 

[bagtaggar]

I have no clue. Using left brain (if I have one), it certainly does not make any sense to me that planets so far away can direct any influence on human health, future, behaviour, fortunes or misfortunes.
It sound totally absurd.

Having said that, I want to give it a chance, explore it and find out, beyond any doubt.

Two possible cases: Either Vedic Astrology is rubbish and invalid. In this case, my life stays as it is and I will know who not to listen to.

But in case, it is valid, thinking of its impressive powers.

So you acknowledge then that from a logical standpoint the notion of Astrology is absurd and holds no scientific water.

So, you know that it is, as far as anyone can tell, physically impossible and absurd to make this connection.

You also know that your own experience with Vedic Astrology is very questionable (in that both the subjective nature of the experience and the way in which information was obtained is questionable).

You know that others here have had poor experiences with Astrology and Palmistry in general.

You have at least one other forum member demonstrating that their own experience with Vedic Astrology has failed.

You have a forum member who agreed to submit themselves to a test involving your astrologer friend, and this failed as well.

You have countless contradictions and logical errors strewn throughout that weigh heavily against the credibility of Vedic Astrology and Astrology in general.

I suppose I just don't see what's left? What else is there that needs to be proven?