Vedic Astrology : Open Thread

[EHocking]

If someone knows his or her birth date but not very about his or her birth time, then an experienced astrologer can look at the lines in palm. (Palmistry) and maybe ask few questions about life to get to the exact time. It is like Reverse Engineering.

I sincerely doubt this, ManLondon, since I've also had a palm reading (local "fayre") and the "reading" was as accurate as any other astrology I've come across. When particular statements are made, regarding health, love, life etc they have tended to fail completely and the rest of the statements are so general as to be of no meaning or use as "guidance" in life.

But you said, in the post I quote from, that you personally know of someone who can do this. As I said, I know my birth time - could you give me a contact for this person that could work it out using palmistry?

But I donot think, we can use this method to test Vedic Astrology. Because in this method, the Vedic Astrologer will ask lots of information, rather than telling forecasts.

...

Hmmm interesting. So from your experince, Vedic Astrology is baseless?

From my experience (have done a few tests on usenet at sci.skeptic over the years and on other sites) ALL astrology is baseless. The "science" behind it is non-sensical, and the results and predictions, ie the "evidence" that is used to support it's premise have never held up to objective scrutiny.

(Edited to correct spelling)

 

[Complexity]

What is the claimed resolution, both of time and space, of Vedic astrology?

 

[ManLondon]

@ManLondon:

Maybe my last comment was put in a rather ignorable way, but I'd really like to know about your judgement on this (I'm not asking for an answer, maybe just your guess):
If Vedic Astrology had a point, wouldn't all twins lead the same life, get the same diseases at the same time, do similar jobs etc? Furthermore, if they are fraternal twins, how could they look different?

FR

Sorry, force_redo, I did not mean to ignore you.
You have correctly pointed out that I can only guess as I am not a Vedic Astrologer. So here is my guess:

What Vedic Astrologers say is that even twins are not born at the same time. Usually they are few minutes apart - which will change their horoscope.

They also believe in reincarnation and also that the life of a person has already been decided based on previous life times and karma. Vedic Astrology is based on Vedas or Hinduism. So it is not fatalistic. It says that though you life, fortunates and misfortunates are predetermined to an extent but the karma, actions and thoughts in this life time is of great importance and you have the power to change your karma based on actions and thoughts that you choose in this life.

One of the most common use of Vedic Astrology is to know the problems in advance and may try to use some of the suggestions based on Vedic Astrology, to atleast minimise the impact of problems.

 

[ManLondon]

Well, if this is the case, do they claim that once they've determined this "rectified" birth time, they can then predict future events? If so, then that's what would have to be tested.

They claim that with the rectified or correct birth time, they can forecast and backcast the events.

Lately, you have been making very constructive suggestions, thank you.

PS:
Though I should also say that I have never heard of a Vedic Astrologer saying that the birth time of person can be before the actual birth.

 

[ManLondon]

You are completely right, of course.
However, I'd like to know from one of those astrologers how far off the "karmic birth" time can be from your real birth time. Minutes? Hours? Years?

I personally have actually heard of this karmic birth time. And that the birth time could be before the actual birth time.

Sorry to say, but this sounds more and more dubious to me. Not that I ever believed in it, all I know about it is what I read here. But coming from "this is an precise, thousands of years old science and needs to be precise" to "after all it doesn't matter at all, since it hasn't really anything to do with the time you were born" is a bit weak...
FR

To Vedic Astrologers, the only information they need is the date-time and place of birth. Thats all. They would never say that birth time doesnot matter, I am very sure about it.

 

[ManLondon]

But you said, in the post I quote from, that you personally know of someone who can do this. As I said, I know my birth time - could you give me a contact for this person that could work it out using palmistry?

No one in London, I am afraid. The Palmists need to see you physically to give you predictions.

From my experience (have done a few tests on usenet at sci.skeptic over the years and on other sites) ALL astrology is baseless. The "science" behind it is non-sensical, and the results and predictions, ie the "evidence" that is used to support it's premise have never held up to objective scrutiny.

Oh I am so glad that you are here. Were there any tests done on Vedic Astrology? Would you be so kind to send us the links to the tests please. I would be so interested and appreciate it.

 

[bagtaggar]

ManLondon:

I'm not sure you're going to find tests specifically concerning Vedic Astrology (although I may be wrong).

The reason it is irrelevant what kind of astrology one refers to is because all Astrology makes the same fundamental claim: the planets and stars affect your life in specific, observable ways.

Not only is there absolutely no physical mechanism at all for this to be possibly true (the only way a planet can affect you is through gravity, magnetism, and light. Your pet cat has millions of times more effect on you in that regard than does Jupiter), but even if there were some possible means for this connection to be made, it doesn't work very well at all, if ever! Astrology in general fails to make accurate, testable predictions, and the few hits it does make can be easily attributed to either coincidence or wishful thinking.

I hope that makes sense, ManLondon. I know you are on the search for truth, and I really think that we have demonstrated that there is no foundation for any kind of Astrology, no matter what culture is spawns from. The question you must ask yourself (and no insult or rudeness intended here), is whether you are willing to give up the belief and accept that reality is different from what Vedic, Western, Chinese Astrology proffess it to be.

 

[bagtaggar]

The same applies to Palmistry. How can looking at lines on your palm determine things you haven't yet done? Can you fathom any possible way this can happen? The simplest explanation tends to be the right one. In this case, which is the simplest explanation?

-The Palm Reader extrapolates detailed information about your life, your future, your personality based entirely on the natural fold lines on the palm of your hand, accomplishing what an army of the most advanced scientific instrumentation on the planet cannot do.

-The Palm Reader is a person wise to the world that makes general statements sporadically dotted with some specifics in the hopes of making a hit, counting on your own naivete to get suckered in.

Are you really going to place your belief in your own infallability and judgement skills against hundreds of years of serious scientific inquiry that provide strong, compelling evidence to the contrary? (again, no insult intended)

This applies to all paranormal subjects!

 

[Mojo]

They claim that with the rectified or correct birth time, they can forecast and backcast the events.

"Backcast?" You mean predicting things that have already happened? I doubt that that would pass muster.

 

[ManLondon]

"Backcast?" You mean predicting things that have already happened? I doubt that that would pass muster.

Actually, Backcasts are a very good way to test it, I thnk. We can ask Vedic Astrologers to backcast the events (just based on date-time and place of birth), i.e. they will tell what would had happened say 5 years back and the test subject can verify the accuracy of the backcasts. And we donot have to wait for few years to know where the forecasts would be true or not.

 

[ManLondon]

I personally have actually heard of this karmic birth time. And that the birth time could be before the actual birth time.



To Vedic Astrologers, the only information they need is the date-time and place of birth. Thats all. They would never say that birth time doesnot matter, I am very sure about it.

My mistake, guys. This is what I meant. I personally have actually never heard of this karmic birth time. And that the birth time could be before the actual birth time.

 

[EHocking]

No one in London, I am afraid. The Palmists need to see you physically to give you predictions.

Oh I am so glad that you are here. Were there any tests done on Vedic Astrology? Would you be so kind to send us the links to the tests please. I would be so interested and appreciate it.

We had a loon that challenged the denizens of sci.skeptic to take on his "ASTROLOGY THAT WORKS EVERY TIME (TM)". The challenge was for $10,000, so after we showed it was rubbish and the sci.skeptic members had pledged $10,000 to take him on, he upped the challenge to $25,000 and basically ignored us.
Here is the thread where I scored his system

Ah, happy days. This was in 1997! I wonder what ever happened to Pete Stapleton?

Anyway, so far, I've not seen any difference between his astrology and your flavour, Vedic. Either in approach, excuses or results.

 

[Mojo]

Actually, Backcasts are a very good way to test it, I thnk. We can ask Vedic Astrologers to backcast the events (just based on date-time and place of birth), i.e. they will tell what would had happened say 5 years back and the test subject can verify the accuracy of the backcasts. And we donot have to wait for few years to know where the forecasts would be true or not.

The problem here is that it is simple to find out about past events by other means than astrology.

 

[ManLondon]

We had a loon that challenged the denizens of sci.skeptic to take on his "ASTROLOGY THAT WORKS EVERY TIME (TM)". The challenge was for $10,000, so after we showed it was rubbish and the sci.skeptic members had pledged $10,000 to take him on, he upped the challenge to $25,000 and basically ignored us.
Here is the thread where I scored his system

Ah, happy days. This was in 1997! I wonder what ever happened to Pete Stapleton?

Anyway, so far, I've not seen any difference between his astrology and your flavour, Vedic. Either in approach, excuses or results.

Thanks Ehocking.

I started looking into this thread lost my interest in the first post itself. Because I know from this opening post that Pete was not talking about Vedic (Indian) Astrology. I am trying to get Vedic Astrology tested.

I was not convinced with his version at all, if I was able to understand his version at all. There were no dates, no specific forecasts and dividing the people in just three categories seemed too broad.

I think your scoreboard was impressive and shows your analytical abilities.

 

[ManLondon]

The problem here is that it is simple to find out about past events by other means than astrology.

We have discussed this to great length few times in this thread. I am, beyond any doubt, sure that Vedic Astrologers donot use other methods to get information about a native. 100% sure. You are welcome to go through the posts. Trust me on this one. It is not like pyschics.

How can you find out specific details (past and future) about a person, family, physical traits just based on "date-time and place of birth" in 5 seconds?.
Lots of times, Vedic Astrologers donot even see people personally.

Can you please tell me how is it simple to find out about past events if all you know is date-time and place of birth.

 

[JLam]

Hi ManLondon,

We haven't chatted in a while...nice to see that you're still investigating this.

Can you please tell me how is it simple to find out about past events if all you know is date-time and place of birth.

The short answer to your question is "they don't." You have done readings on Ryokan and myself, and they both turned out terribly. My reading was about 2 pages long, and there was only one accurate thing in it. That's probably even less than what would be expected by chance! In all of those predictions, one of them is bound to be true. You look at that one and then forget about all the ones that were completely wrong.

Think about that for a moment.

You're again engaging in the strategy of "remembering the hits and forgetting the misses", otherwise known as confirmation bias. Remember we discussed this at great length privately.

 

[ManLondon]

Hi ManLondon,
You're again engaging in the strategy of "remembering the hits and forgetting the misses", otherwise known as confirmation bias. Remember we discussed this at great length privately.

JLam, Hi how are you?

Yes, I know it is one of the problems, people remember the hits and forget the misses. I admit it to be the case with me as well.

I was just intrigued to read that it was simple find out information about past events. So I just asked.

 

[Beleth]

This is an interesting thread for me because my stepfather is really big into the whole Ayurvedic thing, and he had a Vedic horoscope drawn up for my son when he was born. He has not shown it to me yet, because I want to run a test with it.

When my son turns 18, I am going to have a neutral party take out all the words in the horoscope that describe him and replace them, Mad Libs-style, with blanks. I am then going to fill in the blanks with my own observations of him, and compare how close they are to each other.

I'm not expecting a perfect match for there to be a success, but the percentage of good correlations will need to be determined ahead of time. I'm thinking 80-85%. Certainly not less than 50%.

 

[Mojo]

If someone knows his or her birth date but not very about his or her birth time, then an experienced astrologer can look at the lines in palm. (Palmistry) and maybe ask few questions about life to get to the exact time. It is like Reverse Engineering.

They claim that with the rectified or correct birth time, they can forecast and backcast the events.

We have discussed this to great length few times in this thread. I am, beyond any doubt, sure that Vedic Astrologers donot use other methods to get information about a native. 100% sure. You are welcome to go through the posts. Trust me on this one. It is not like pyschics.

How can you find out specific details (past and future) about a person, family, physical traits just based on "date-time and place of birth" in 5 seconds?.
Lots of times, Vedic Astrologers donot even see people personally.

Can you please tell me how is it simple to find out about past events if all you know is date-time and place of birth.

Possibly they could have found out something about the subject while they are questioning them in order to establish their "rectified birth time". Or perhaps you think that they would somehow forget anything they've been told between establishing the "rectified birth time" and giving the reading based on it?

If you were to suggest using one astrologer to establish the birth time and another to give the reading, then this gives the second astrologer an "out" if his reading doesn't fit the subject; he can just say that the first astrologer didn't establish the time correctly. And then we just go back round the same argument again.

And, please don't take this personally, but "trust me on this one" isn't good enough. It's not a question of whether or not we trust you. It's a question of removing from the equation any other means by which the infomation could be obtained other than the method they are stating they use.

 

[ManLondon]

This is an interesting thread for me because my stepfather is really big into the whole Ayurvedic thing, and he had a Vedic horoscope drawn up for my son when he was born. He has not shown it to me yet, because I want to run a test with it.

When my son turns 18, I am going to have a neutral party take out all the words in the horoscope that describe him and replace them, Mad Libs-style, with blanks. I am then going to fill in the blanks with my own observations of him, and compare how close they are to each other.

Thank you for being here. Great to hear that you found this thread. I am certainly looking forward to hearing from people who have had their forecasts done from a Vedic Astrologer. It gets even more exciting because you seem bit skeptic. Perfect!

When does your son turn 18? Can you not please convince your stepfather to disclose the horoscope any time soon. I am extremely excited to hear your opinions. Please!

I'm not expecting a perfect match for there to be a success, but the percentage of good correlations will need to be determined ahead of time. I'm thinking 80-85%. Certainly not less than 50%.

Spot on!