Vancouver Heroin users program

[Badger]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/02/08/924568-cp.html

I was reading the justifications for this program, and it raised a thought. My question, therefore, is "Why not institutionalize the addicts?"

A lot of the justification has to do with safety and reducing crime, and the issue of how these addicts have little control over their lives. So why not put them all in an institution where they can be monitored, counseled, protected, etc. and then integrated back into society as they regain control of their lives and themselves?

This is kind of a cynical question, because I know that this would be infringing on their personal rights and freedoms, and we can't have that.

Man I sound cold hearted.

 

[CBL4]

Let's see, we give them free drugs and they no longer steal, prostitute themselves or spread AIDS. Who knows, they might be able to hold a job and pay taxes and probably will not be around as many criminals. Sounds incredibly stupid to me. Let's lock them up instead.

CBL

 

[FFed]

I have had my truck broken into three times in two months when I lived in Vancouver. The cops told me it was the druggies since they only took the change in ash tray and nothing else. It got to the point where I had to leave my windows open, the club on the steering wheel, and my alarm on. They would use a screw driver on the key hole and it would cost me $200 bucks each time to get it fixed. Even today, years later, everytime I unlock my truck door I have to jiggle the key to make it work and it really makes me made.

I would rather have my tax dollars used to lock the scum up.

 

[kittynh]

money, costs a lot to lock them up.

If you want to pay for it cool. Is it Indonesia that has really serious drug laws? Not much drug use there I guess!

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

Let's see, we give them free drugs and they no longer steal, prostitute themselves or spread AIDS. Who knows, they might be able to hold a job and pay taxes and probably will not be around as many criminals. Sounds incredibly stupid to me. Let's lock them up instead.

CBL

Exactly my thoughts as well CBL. There is another bonus with this model in that many (IMHO and looking at the British model), will clean themselves up on their and eventually go sober.

IMHO Severe drug addiction robs the victims of hope. This way the addicts can get some semblance of "normal" living and perhaps give them some incentive to enjoy life and quit their addictions.

Also, we will know who the addicts are and be able to offer them choices and treatment to quit.

Charlie (drug laws are archaic and politically driven) Monoxide

 

[FFed]

How about we give those with a gambling addiction free money? And I am a sex addict, where is my free prostitute?

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

How about we give those with a gambling addiction free money? And I am a sex addict, where is my free prostitute?

Obviously you're pissed off because you were "alledgedly" ripped off by drug addicts. Drug addiction (along with gambling and sex addiction) are diseases (IMHO). Gamblers and sex addicts don't have much of a track record for ripping people off to satisfy their cravings as drugs do.

Perhaps in your "world view" these deviants should be locked up with the druggies. If that does happen, I'll invest heavily in the private prison market.

Sex and gambling addictions are much more easier to satisfy than drugs. Our illustrious leaders over the years saw wisdom in pursuing a course of prohibition and interdiction of drugs. This same strategy created the mafia in the late 20's with "the great experiment" with booze. Today, with dope, it's evolved into to be the main money maker for urban, Latin American, and biker gangs. As well, according to various govt sponsored ads, a money maker for international terrorists as well.

Charlie (I just want to get high, not be or contribute to criminals) Monoxide

 

[kittynh]

not all criminals are drug users, and not all drug users are criminals.

some of the biggest drug users I know can well afford their "hobby". A lot of doctors owe their fancy cars to their perscription pads.

Just a side note, that the several long term heroin users I know never had to resort to crime. Though I'm not sure all the art and music critics agree!

 

[Earthborn]

How about we give those with a gambling addiction free money?

Actually that may not be such a bad idea! Around here in the Netherlands casinos are a state monopoly, so if the government gives gambling addicts free money from taxation, it will just end up where it came from. It will cost nothing. Since the chances of winning are very small, and the chances of a gambling addict not gambling away his winnings are even smaller, there is no problem in allowing an addict to keep his winnings.

All you have to do is make sure only people who are diagnosed as a gambling addict get the free money, to prevent people who won't gamble it away from getting it. The payment might be in the form of chips instead of money. Also the addicts will only be allowed to play in official casinos.

 

[Jon_in_london]

I would rather have my tax dollars used to lock the scum up.

YES! thats worked really well hasnt it! No heroin users in this country- all locked up at taxpayers expense. No cars ever get broken into in this country.....

 

[Zep]

money, costs a lot to lock them up.

If you want to pay for it cool. Is it Indonesia that has really serious drug laws? Not much drug use there I guess!

There seems to be a major difference between the way Indonesian citizens are treated re drug use, and the way foreign tourists are treated at the border trying to smuggle in or out.

If they were REALLY serious, a significant portion of the more than 100 million Indonesians would be doing long stretches in jail or be shot against walls for drug trafficking and usage.

Also, it is strongly rumoured that the police and military (and some government officials) run that trade anyway, and they really don't like outsiders causing problems by them importing or exporting their own.

 

[Zep]

I don't have a complete solution, but the problem works out like this:

1) Addict needs the hit. REAL bad...that's why they are called "addicts"!

2) The drug is illegal because of the global "War on Drugs".

3) Illegal supplier knows this and can charge "what the market will bear" to supply the addict.

4) Addict needs the money, and is desperate, so they will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get it.

5) Stealing electricals from cars and houses is the easiest pickings for the best monetary gain. The goods are the easiest to fence, no side-effects (like assault) occur, and the owners are probably insured and likely "not to suffer the loss too much" (all ).

6) Cost increases and major upsetting to community, victim, insurance company, etc.

7) Repeat from step 1.


At this point, I'll toss in a "circuit-breaker" question: If addictive drugs were NOT illegal in the first place, and were made available under controlled conditions and at a cost that was basically affordable to most addicts, what would be the change in personal and community outcomes, positive and negative?

 

[Random]

I think the Canadians may have the right idea (again). Allow currently existing drug addicts to come into treatment centers and receive a dose of the drug of their choice, maybe after watching a five minute video encouraging them to kick the habit and offering them treatment plans.

Then you tell all the street dealers, "Good luck competing with free!", and let market forces go to work.

 

[kittynh]

I think any heroin user isn't a very happy person. Maybe people are thinking, "hey give out free drugs! it's a party all the time!"

I always think there are some people that are going to look for a quick fix or high on whatever is the latest "cool" drug. I found that even years ago there were the "newest" drug that would come on the scene. The gotta have one.

Drugs would come in waves or popularity. Cocaine (it went cheap at one point, and became the drug of choice) was a big party favorite. I remember being at parties and people assuring me that cocaine "isn't addictive". I totally believed them, but figured I could never afford it. Sort of like why I avoided caviar, why develop a taste I could never afford?

Crack, now that was (is) a horror.

I just think that there will always be a new drug, or an old drug come back. Drug addiction is a horrible thing. Drug use causes many car accidents or just plain stupid behavior. Yet so does alcohol (which is a drug).

 

[FFed]

Obviously you're pissed off because you were "alledgedly" ripped off by drug addicts. Drug addiction (along with gambling and sex addiction) are diseases (IMHO). Gamblers and sex addicts don't have much of a track record for ripping people off to satisfy their cravings as drugs do.

Perhaps in your "world view" these deviants should be locked up with the druggies. If that does happen, I'll invest heavily in the private prison market.

Sex and gambling addictions are much more easier to satisfy than drugs. Our illustrious leaders over the years saw wisdom in pursuing a course of prohibition and interdiction of drugs. This same strategy created the mafia in the late 20's with "the great experiment" with booze. Today, with dope, it's evolved into to be the main money maker for urban, Latin American, and biker gangs. As well, according to various govt sponsored ads, a money maker for international terrorists as well.

Charlie (I just want to get high, not be or contribute to criminals) Monoxide

Damn rights I am pissed. Sure, I can't prove it was druggies that busted my truck up three times, or my old roommates (x2), or the other people parked in parking lots, or parkades where it happened. But I will take the word of the police who said it had all the signs of druggies and tell me they get calls every five minutes for the same thing. Or the news casts showing druggies doing it, or showing the scum beating up old people to take their money for drugs.
East Vancouver is the skid row of Canada. Remove the scum, things would change.

 

[FFed]

YES! thats worked really well hasnt it! No heroin users in this country- all locked up at taxpayers expense. No cars ever get broken into in this country.....

"The report notes that the trafficking and use of illegal drugs underlies most crime in Vancouver, with some police sources estimating 90 per cent of thefts from autos in Vancouver are committed by criminals seeking cash or property they can pawn to buy drugs. The report also observes that drug and crime activity traditionally centered in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside is now spreading to adjacent neighbourhoods. In 2002, over 7,000 vehicles were broken into in the downtown peninsula alone. "

http://www.governmentrelations.ubc.ca/informed/jan2004/inbc.html

Lock the scum up and give them treatment there. If they don't get clean then don't let them out. It has been estimated the average druggie in Vancouver has a $500 - $1000 a day habit. Now where do you suppose someone on welfare gets that much money?

 

[Badger]

Let's see, we give them free drugs and they no longer steal, prostitute themselves or spread AIDS. Who knows, they might be able to hold a job and pay taxes and probably will not be around as many criminals. Sounds incredibly stupid to me. Let's lock them up instead.

CBL

I think you misunderstand my point.

When I offered the "institutionalize them" solution, that would include the free drugs and help to get over their addiction, as well as counselling. It would also remove them from the need/opportunity to prostitute themselves, and commit theft.

I'm kind of playing devils advocate here.

By just supplying free drugs in the same environment, what has really changed? If the premise is to do something about the problem, well, I think they should DO something. I don't think they should just enable destructive behavior.

 

[Zep]

What's the experience of people in places where addicts are treated by being given drugs under community control programs, designed to eliminate the high criminal cost of the drugs? What about "harm minimisation" measures? Any stories?

 

[LW]

When I offered the "institutionalize them" solution, that would include the free drugs and help to get over their addiction, as well as counselling. It would also remove them from the need/opportunity to prostitute themselves, and commit theft.

Well, my wild guess is that around 95% of people do not want to be institutionalized for any reason. So, I don't see drug users flocking into therapy institutions to get help and you would have to catch them one at a time when they come across, quite like what happens now. Meanwhile, they still roam around stealing stuff to pay for their drugs.

By just supplying free drugs in the same environment, what has really changed?

The druggies don't have to steal money or prostitute to gain drugs. So, the overall crime rate might well drop.

I don't know whether free drugs would help or harm more. But I don't think that the idea is completely ridiculous, either.

 

[Random]

By just supplying free drugs in the same environment, what has really changed? If the premise is to do something about the problem, well, I think they should DO something. I don't think they should just enable destructive behavior.

Well, if we supply drugs to currently existing addicts, not only can we reduce the crimes that those addicts commit in order to support their habits, but we can also cut into the bottom line of existing drug dealers. If any drug addict can go to a government facility and receive a dose of the drug of their choice legally and in a safe environment, the five buck a hit illegal guys operating in back alleys would not be able to compete in a market environment. They will be driven out of business.

Once the market for illegal drugs dries up, the opportunities for new addicts to be created will be severely reduced, if not eliminated. Granted, we’d still be stuck with hundreds of thousands of addicts whose habits we are supporting, but if currently existing addicts are receiving treatment and/or dying of other causes faster than new addicts pop up, eventually we win through attrition.

It certainly makes as much sense as the current policy that we have been pursuing for the last half-century.