USS Liberty

[gumboot]

Even if your characterization of the currently available evidence is correct, listening to electromagnetic propagation from international waters is not a crime.

Where was it suggested it was? Has anyone suggested that the Israeli attack on the ship was a law enforcement action?

If the attack was simply a case of friendly fire as you suggest can you explain the need to jam our radios on both US Navy and international maritime distress frequencies

The Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Saratoga received radio transmissions from the Liberty and successfully passed these on to the 6th Fleet. This would indicate that radio jamming did not occur. Fighter aircraft were initially scrambled in response to these communications, but recalled because they were carrying nuclear payloads.

to have the torpedo boats deliberately destroy life rafts we had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship and to have the torpedo boats slowly circle the ship while firing from close range at USS Liberty crewmen who ventured topside to help their wounded shipmates?

Lloyd Painter and Glenn Oliphant are the only two survivors who claimed to have seen the torpedo boats fire on life rafts, correct? The Captain, in contrast, claims that the MTBs offered assistance after realising their mistake, and that he told them to stay away. Neither the Captain nor any other survivors on the deck testified to these actions by the torpedo boats.

 

[gumboot]

I find it IMPOSSIBLE that if not the naked eye, with an eyeglass the PT boats wouldnt have seen it... Its impossible everyone on the ship says the flag was flying and those boats didnt see it, impossible

According to the logs the closest the MTBs ever closed was 2000 yards which is quite a considerable distance. In addition, since Joe here was the signalman he can confirm that smoke from the fires made it impossible for him to read the MTBs signals, just as the Israelis claim they could not see his signals clearly. Thus we cannot assume the MTBs saw the US flag.

Finally, even assuming the MTBs did know it was a US ship that they approached (which, in fact, is what the Israeli account states), the Liberty fired on them first, and thus the MTBs had absolute right to return fire. For all they know it could have been an Egyptian ship conducting a false flag attack (I can almost taste the irony of that suggestion).

Whether is was reasonable for the Liberty to fire on the MTBs or not is entirely beside the point as determining guilt during acts of war is based solely on the person's situational perception, and not on what was actually happening.

 

[roundhead]

i would like somebody to assess this quote...........


Perhaps the most persuasive suggestion that such transcripts existed comes from the Israelis themselves, in a pair of diplomatic cables sent by the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Avraham Harman, to Foreign Minister Abba Eban in Tel Aviv.

Five days after the Liberty attack, Harman cabled Eban that a source the Israelis code-named "Hamlet" was reporting that the Americans had "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway."

Harman repeated the warning three days later, advising Eban, who is now dead, that the White House was "very angry," and that "the reason for this is that the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."







Btw, there has only been ONE official investigation. And as far as i can tell,only 17 crew testified.

The official investigation was a VERY HASTY affair that began 10 DAYS after the incident.

Think about that , 10 days when counsel figured 6 months would be needed to get to the bottom of it.

LBJ whitewashed it, and swept it under the rug as quickly as posible, its plain as day.

And ANYBODY in authority would be scared to death to have a Congressional investigation of the incident, because of its ramifications.

 

[jmeadors]

The location of a belligerent is irrelevant. The USS Liberty was spying on two nations that were at war. Neither nation could be sure if the USA was sharing that intelligence with the enemy, therefore either nation was justified in attacking the ship.

Under that scenario the combatants were justified in attacking any ship in the area.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

The official investigation was a VERY HASTY affair that began 10 DAYS after the incident.

Think about that , 10 days when counsel figured 6 months would be needed to get to the bottom of it.

so they should have waited 6 months, then started investigating? im not sure what you are trying to say here

 

[roundhead]

Based on a general appreciation of naval history in the 20th Century, I find it utterly beyond credibility that a competent naval force could attack a lightly armed merchant ship using fighter-bombers and motor torpedo boats and yet leave that ship still afloat. Any kind of co-ordination between the two attacks, or simply equipping the fighters with some kind of anti-shipping weapon, would easily have been able to sink the USS Liberty leaving no survivors. I can understand the survivors still being angry at the deaths of their crewmates, but the conspiracy theory simply doesn't pass the common sense test. Mistakes like this are common in war.

Dave

No, DAVE, mistakes like thiswhere the attackers state its American, and are ordered to attack anyway, are extremely rare.

Clear day, flag easily seen, ship looks NOTHING like the Egyptian ship she was supposed to be mistaken for.


I would bet my life the controllers knew exactly what ship they sent those pilots after, and the chatter is the result of the pilots not being told , and of couse needing reassurance after noting it was American, to fire on her.

A Congressional investigation at this point would be very embarrasing to Israel.

 

[gumboot]

Under that scenario the combatants were justified in attacking any ship in the area.

Which is exactly what Israel told the USA they would do.

 

[roundhead]

so they should have waited 6 months, then started investigating? im not sure what you are trying to say here

Are you truly this dense???


Admiral Mc Cain, on instruction forbade anybody from traveling to Israel to speak with anyone involved in the attack, in spite of counsel's objections to this.

60 sailors in sick bay injured, were not allowed to testify at the hearing. Easy to go bedsite and take accounts.

It commenced within 10 days.

And open and shut murder case takes way longer than that, and only a fool would argue with this rational that "why is 10 days an issue"

That is flat unpatriotic and sinister.


I didnt say "we should wait 6 months"...i said counsel said it would take about six months to do a full inquiry so as to get all the facts. In a case of this magnitude, involving a huge loss of life, i think 6 months is actually extremely timely.

 

[SDC]

No, DAVE, mistakes like thiswhere the attackers state its American, and are ordered to attack anyway, are extremely rare.

Clear day, flag easily seen, ship looks NOTHING like the Egyptian ship she was supposed to be mistaken for.


I would bet my life the controllers knew exactly what ship they sent those pilots after, and the chatter is the result of the pilots not being told , and of couse needing reassurance after noting it was American, to fire on her.

A Congressional investigation at this point would be very embarrasing to Israel.

OK Roundhead, you have bet your life. Now you refer to embarrassing Israel as a relevant issue, even though the Israeli authorities apologized and provided compensation. Earlier you said you really wanted the US government to own up to its responsibility. What, in fact, do you really want? I asked you before: Israel to say again that they did it? further compensation? An attack on Tel Aviv? Some sort of medal for the crew? Another congressional investigation -- for which go ahead, please, convince Congress, by the way. Be my guest, use your best arguments.

Mr Meadors, likewise, I guess. What exactly do you want? To punish Israel further, to get something out of the US government, or what?

LBJ is dead, incidentally. 1973. I believe it was at the insistence of the North Vietnamese. ("OK, Henry, we'll take the deal, but you've got to get rid of the old Texas b*stard or it's no dice.")

 

[Klimax]

No, DAVE, mistakes like thiswhere the attackers state its American, and are ordered to attack anyway, are extremely rare.

Clear day, flag easily seen, ship looks NOTHING like the Egyptian ship she was supposed to be mistaken for.


I would bet my life the controllers knew exactly what ship they sent those pilots after, and the chatter is the result of the pilots not being told , and of couse needing reassurance after noting it was American, to fire on her.

A Congressional investigation at this point would be very embarrasing to Israel.

Problems with reading, apparently.Reread what gumboot says and then return.
But based on records in this section,people like you are going to waste another 20 pages (And countless hours of other posters) before "disappearing"...

 

[jmeadors]

Where was it suggested it was? Has anyone suggested that the Israeli attack on the ship was a law enforcement action?

The Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Saratoga received radio transmissions from the Liberty and successfully passed these on to the 6th Fleet. This would indicate that radio jamming did not occur. Fighter aircraft were initially scrambled in response to these communications, but recalled because they were carrying nuclear payloads.

I cannot recall specifically if it was included in the Court of Inquiry or not but will find out. I do know it was in a written statement from Capt. Tully of the Saratoga that he ordered the launch of his ready strike force within minutes of the beginning of the attack and before those aircraft reached the horizon they were recalled. The nuclear armed aircraft were on the America -- not the Saratoga. We have not yet been able to verify the claim sufficiently to be confident that it is correct.

If you are unsure about the jamming you might try getting hold of USS Liberty survivors who witnessed it so you can get a first-person account.

Lloyd Painter and Glenn Oliphant are the only two survivors who claimed to have seen the torpedo boats fire on life rafts, correct? The Captain, in contrast, claims that the MTBs offered assistance after realising their mistake, and that he told them to stay away. Neither the Captain nor any other survivors on the deck testified to these actions by the torpedo boats.

Lloyd Painter testified about witnessing the deliberate machine gunning of our life rafts in the water during the Court of Inquiry but his testimony does not appear in the record of the court.

Other survivors who were on deck were interviewed by Court officials but were not called to testify.

 

[SDC]

Mr Meadors, again, what is your remedy? More apologies/ compensation from Israel? Apology/ compensation/ medals from the US? An attack on Tel Aviv? A strike against LBJ's gravesite? (Does the ranch still exist?) Please clarify.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Are you truly this dense???


Admiral Mc Cain, on instruction forbade anybody from traveling to Israel to speak with anyone involved in the attack, in spite of counsel's objections to this.

60 sailors in sick bay injured, were not allowed to testify at the hearing. Easy to go bedsite and take accounts.

It commenced within 10 days.

And open and shut murder case takes way longer than that, and only a fool would argue with this rational that "why is 10 days an issue"

That is flat unpatriotic and sinister.


I didnt say "we should wait 6 months"...i said counsel said it would take about six months to do a full inquiry so as to get all the facts. In a case of this magnitude, involving a huge loss of life, i think 6 months is actually extremely timely.

your point seems to be how long the investigation took, which is why i cant understand why when it began is apparently an issue

The official investigation was a VERY HASTY affair that began 10 DAYS after the incident.

Think about that , 10 days when counsel figured 6 months would be needed to get to the bottom of it.

the argument you appear to be waiting is that they should have waited 6 months before beginning the investigation

 

[jmeadors]

Mr Meadors, again, what is your remedy? More apologies/ compensation from Israel? Apology/ compensation/ medals from the US? An attack on Tel Aviv? A strike against LBJ's gravesite? (Does the ranch still exist?) Please clarify.

All we want is to have the attack investigated. Just like the attacks on the USS Pueblo, USS Stark and USS Cole were investigated. Contrary to the claims that have been made here and elsewhere the attack on the USS Liberty has never been investigated by the US government.

 

[SDC]

Then do it. Contact your congressional rep. That's the only way to get an investigation, or at least I would think so.

Work at convincing them that it is necessary. Avoid anything lunatic (like what Roundhead said about the ambassadors to Lebanon or Qatar listening to the Israelis, in Hebrew, in real time in 1967 -- that's nuts). Put together your best case and insist.

 

[jmeadors]

Then do it. Contact your congressional rep. That's the only way to get an investigation, or at least I would think so.

Work at convincing them that it is necessary. Avoid anything lunatic (like what Roundhead said about the ambassadors to Lebanon or Qatar listening to the Israelis, in Hebrew, in real time in 1967 -- that's nuts). Put together your best case and insist.

We've been trying to get a Congressional investigation for decades but not a single Member of Congress thinks an attack on a US Navy ship that includes the deliberate machine gunning of American life rafts in the water and the abandoning of a US Navy ship while that ship is still under fire is worthy of Congressional scrutiny. Compare that to the investigations that followed the death of Pat Tillman.

I wouldn't unilaterally discount everything anyone says. In fact we know that the attack was being monitored in Lebanon and Morocco as well as other stations in Europe.

Fear not. We will continue the fight until the attack on our ship is finally investigated. We owe nothing less to our fallen shipmates and their families.

 

[Doctor Evil]

I wouldn't unilaterally discount everything anyone says. In fact we know that the attack was being monitored in Lebanon and Morocco as well as other stations in Europe.

This seems unlikely due to radio range. Anyone with more knowledge can comment about that, considering available technology at the time?

Mr. Meadors, I freely admit I am not sure if it was possible to monitor transmissions at those distances. That is why I am asking others to comment. My first guess is that the radios of the units involved were not strong enough to reach such distances. If you want to convince Congress to start another investigation you should try to avoid any claims that will weaken your case.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

All we want is to have the attack investigated. Just like the attacks on the USS Pueblo, USS Stark and USS Cole were investigated. Contrary to the claims that have been made here and elsewhere the attack on the USS Liberty has never been investigated by the US government.

• The CIA Report of 1967
• The Clark Clifford Report of 1967
• The Joint Chief of Staff's Report, on U.S. communications failures.
• The NSA Report of 1981 including recordings of intercepted Israeli military radio transmissions and translated transcripts of post-attack helicopter pilots.
• The Senate Foreign Relations Committee Testimony of 1967
• The U.S. Naval Court of Inquiry as released under FOIA

 

[jmeadors]

Mr. Meadors, I freely admit I am not sure if it was possible to monitor transmissions at those distances. That is why I am asking others to comment. My first guess is that the radios of the units involved were not strong enough to reach such distances. If you want to convince Congress to start another investigation you should try to avoid any claims that will weaken your case.

I appreciate your advice. To correct you on one point, the US government has never conducted an investigation of the attack on the USS Liberty.

 

[jmeadors]

NB--I had to remove the links in your note since I have not achieved the 15 posts required to allow me to post hyperlinks. Joe

Of course we're familiar with all of the documents to which you refer.

Unfortunately none is the result of a US government investigation of the attack on the USS Liberty.