USA Laws founded on 10 commandments

There used to be a good thread on this topic that disappeared in one of the great "prunings".

However, the first part of it was saved by Claus over on the SkepticReport site:

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/22874.htm

For anyone interested, it starts out with my thoughts as a jurist on the influence of the Ten Commandments specifically and, to a lesser exent, the Bible generally, on the development of American law.
 
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The Carlin bit was great* Legalduck, thanks for the link.

Based on reading this thread and some of the links I think the case has been made that the laws of the US or other western civilizations are not based on the ten commandments.

But I think there is still a question as to how the 10 commandments influenced our laws. Assume for instance that Constantine falls down a flight of stairs and dies before he becomes emperor and Mithraism becomes the dominant religion of western civilization. How is stuff different?

I don't know but my thought is that one of the things that the ten commandments did was push the idea of a mixing of church and state and some of the savagery done in the name of the Christian religion might have been less for another religon without the 10 commandments.

There might be smaller effects still hanging on in our laws today as has been noted above. Liquor stores being closed on sundays might be one of them. Allegedly secular France just had a little conflict when stores on the Champs-Elysees tried to stay open on Sunday and were prevented from doing so largely by a religious minority in the country.

*Small personal digression:
I have been a skeptic/atheist for as long as long as I have a concious memory of my views about the world. But I think participation over the last several years in this forum has changed my attitude towards religion somewhat. Three years ago I think I would have been more uncomfortable with the Carlin bit than amused by it because of the way it might offend some people. For better or worse in the last three years my view of religion has changed. While I continue to see value in it as it provides comfort to some people, I am also more aware of the massive human disaster that religion has foisted on the humanity and as such am far more willing to find the ridicule of religion appealing.
 
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marksman said:
Sunday is not the Sabbath. Saturday is the day of the Sabbath. Sunday is merely a day of prayer established for churches way back in the beginning of Christianity.
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Are you certain? If so, how do you know that, and what are your cites for substantiating this claim?


http://www.religioustolerance.org/sabbath.htm
The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath. They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." There are many indicators in the historical record that some Christians ignored the Church's ruling. Sabbath observance was noted in Wales as late as 1115 CE. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa, India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE.
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Also, in researching this, I re-read the Bible passages that order a Sabbath, and oddly, no days of the week are mentioned. "Six days shalt thou labor, and on the seventh...." No mention of the day of the week; just the number of days.

Therefore, I conclude that Judaism and Christianity have different sabbaths, and insisting the sabbath is Saturday, universally, is an error.
 
The quote you cite says it all:

"Christians shall not judaize". Christianity did not observe a Sabbath. Heck, it didn't observe any of the Sabbath rules regarding the starting of fires, carrying money or the othe rbehaviors prohibited on Sabbath. The day began and ended as the day began and ended, not at the prior sundown, as in Judaism. They simply adopted the Roman tradition of praying on Sunday.

The line "Sunday became the new Sabbath" is thus metaphorical, not literal. No Christian of which I am aware believes the Hebraic commandments relating to Sabbath observance apply to Christian Sunday observances.
 
Oh, goodie, a No True Scotsman!

Sorry. I was a Christian much longer than I've been an atheist, and I was taught that Sunday is the Sabbath day. Therefore, you need to meet more Christians. I suggest you try the Bible Belt, where I grew up.

When you start dragging out your anecdotal evidence, I'm always happy to provide my own.

Now, care to actually cite some evidence?

To be more clear: there are many Christians who use the word "sabbath" when talking about Sunday. No, they don't celebrate the Jewish sabbath, but the word is still retained. Not in all Xtian denominations and practices, but in enough.
 
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slingblade said:
Oh, goodie, a No True Scotsman!

Sorry. I was a Christian much longer than I've been an atheist, and I was taught that Sunday is the Sabbath day. Therefore, you need to meet more Christians. I suggest you try the Bible Belt, where I grew up.

When you start dragging out your anecdotal evidence, I'm always happy to provide my own.

Now, care to actually cite some evidence?

To be more clear: there are many Christians who use the word "sabbath" when talking about Sunday. No, they don't celebrate the Jewish sabbath, but the word is still retained. Not in all Xtian denominations and practices, but in enough.
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However, the Ten Commandments are Judaic Commandments, and they hence reference the Jewish Sabbath, which is a Saturday. Not Sunday.
 
Exactly. I don't care if Christians call Sunday the "Sabbath". Many Christians don't think a crucifix is an idol either, but under the Ten Commandments, it is.

Also, I didn't put forward any "anecdotal evidence" I just cited the actual Ten Commandments and then refuted the person's claim that Sunday is the Sabbath using the very website used by the person claiming it is.
 
Whether you consider Shabbos to be Saturday, Sunday, Friday, or every other Thursday, there aren't really any laws forcing people to "keep the Sabbath."

The closest you come are Blue Laws, which vary by municipality and some states. Most of these, even when enforced, are considered silly, such as the Georgia law against retail stores selling alcohol on Sundays. If you want to work on Sabbath, if you want to conduct financial transactions, if you want to light a fire, if you want to do any of the other myriad things the Torah/OT tell you not to do on Shabbos, the state isn't going to do anything to stop you.
 
There have been some Establishment Clause challenges to state blue laws; I can't cite a case offhand but they've been upheld on the ground that they do have a secular purpose of giving people a day off of work for personal reasons, or something like that. It's not too hard to justify these laws on secular grounds despite the fact that they clearly have roots in religious tradition, and the courts are generally deferential to the states as long as some secular purpose can be articulated.
 
JamesDillon said:
There have been some Establishment Clause challenges to state blue laws; I can't cite a case offhand but they've been upheld on the ground that they do have a secular purpose of giving people a day off of work for personal reasons, or something like that. It's not too hard to justify these laws on secular grounds despite the fact that they clearly have roots in religious tradition, and the courts are generally deferential to the states as long as some secular purpose can be articulated.
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Several such cases have come before the U.S. Supreme Court, of which probably the best-known is McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420 (1961). I linked to McGowan and two other opinions in this post.
 
marksman said:
Also, I didn't put forward any "anecdotal evidence" I just cited the actual Ten Commandments and then refuted the person's claim that Sunday is the Sabbath using the very website used by the person claiming it is.
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"No Christian of which I am aware" is anecdotal. You're not aware of all Christians.

[pedant]"Of whom," when speaking of people, not "of which."[/pedant]
 
slingblade said:
"No Christian of which I am aware" is anecdotal. You're not aware of all Christians.
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Which is why I qualified it with "of which I am aware." I was merely responding to Bikewer's use of anecdotal evidence.

But as pointed out when discussing the Ten Commandments, which is found in Judaic Law, one should use the Judaic definition.

Also, as pointed out, even assuming that Sunday is a Sabbath, the government has no laws enforcing Sabbath rest. Blue Laws, at most, close down only some businesses. There isn't a county in this country that doesn't have some people working on each day of the week.


slingblade said:
[pedant]"Of whom," when speaking of people, not "of which."[/pedant]
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Noted.
 
I agree with you in principle, Marksman, I do. It's just that I keep seeing people saying the sabbath is Saturday only, and there are some Xtians who do believe Sunday is called "sabbath." I was reared that way (anecdotal, ;)), so I know there are a few folks, at least, who would be equally surprised to be told they are wrong.

It's a semantics thing.
 
slingblade said:
I was reared that way (anecdotal, ;)), so I know there are a few folks, at least, who would be equally surprised to be told they are wrong.

It's a semantics thing.
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They may be surprised to be told they're wrong. They're still wrong. :)

They're wrong on a lot of things... evolution... the constitutionality of school prayer... flag burning...
 
Arcades, malls, and most shops do not require seven day a week coverage. They're open because people have time off and will spend money.

But a grocery store, sure. A pharmacy, sure. Firefighters, police officers, EMTs, most definitely.

Of course, along my lines of logic, I don't see why banks aren't open on Sundays.

Enjoy the two cents.
 
LostAngeles said:
Arcades, malls, and most shops do not require seven day a week coverage. They're open because people have time off and will spend money.

But a grocery store, sure. A pharmacy, sure. Firefighters, police officers, EMTs, most definitely.

Of course, along my lines of logic, I don't see why banks aren't open on Sundays.

Enjoy the two cents.
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Can I have another three cents for an even nickel? I don't get what you're getting at ... especially as it regards the first paragraph. Acutually, especially as it regards the last sentence of the first paragraph.
 
Rob Lister said:
Can I have another three cents for an even nickel? I don't get what you're getting at ... especially as it regards the first paragraph. Acutually, especially as it regards the last sentence of the first paragraph.
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I forgot to hit quote. (doh) I was referring to the whole Sabbath bit in the initial post.
 
First of all the math is all wrong. There was originally only 5 commandments and all 5 of them, that's 100%, eventually became
law.

The only reason we have ten commandments is because when god gave moses five of them, moses asked how much it was gonna cost him. God said nothing, they're free. In that case, moses said, give me five more.
 
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