Trump's promised ICE raids have begun

[lionking]

The "good reason" is that they want to foment violence. They want the protestors to fight back, because that will justify bringing in jackbooted thugs and martial law, and that will allow them to impose their rule over the whole country.

It's all deliberate. The cruelty is the point.

It is to the credit of the American citizenry that they are refraining from violent response as much as they are, that they are protesting peacefully and in frog costumes, rather than with masks and molotov cocktails. It undermines their entire narrative of "violent antifa domestic terrorists".

Spot on. But this is how majority Democrat states are expected to respond. Imagine if ICE agents were acting like this in Dallas. It would be all guns blazing.

 

[jimbob]

This is what makes me want to know what his boss did after he screwed up and got injured the previous time. What resulted from that? What remedial training did he receive regarding the safety rules he broke? Who judged him fit to return to his duties as an angry reckless heavy, facing the public with a gun and a chip on his shoulder?

You're asking the sort of questions that assume it's a normal organisation.

 

[jimbob]

Because you'd definitely need to devote so much time and effort to casting aspersions on someone if you had video evidence that proved they tried to run someone over.

I'm convinced now. Yes it was unfortunate that he wrongly killed someone, but at least it was someone who Leavitt says was bad in ways that were unrelated to their killing, so it doesn't matter that the killer.had no way of knowing that at the time.


I hope the sarcasm is obvious

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The taunted agent switched hands with his phone to free his gun hand, then walked around past the front of the car again as other agents approached from the other side, yelling orders. He intended to challenge her, with his gun as a threat. That's why he was so very fast to draw and fire when she drove away. He didn't have to think about it, because he was already thinking about it.

Sure, his plan would have been to threaten to shoot her rather than actually do it, but she took him by surprise. Rather like when something falls and you grab for it before you have time to process the idea it's a sharp kitchen knife, he hit the turning car with his phone hand, which naturally didn't stop it, and he used his gun hand, which suddenly had a gun in it, to stop it instead, in the way he was currently thinking about.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which laws were broken and where liability lies.

 

[kookbreaker]

But remember folks, he's not victim blaming.

 

[kookbreaker]

She only crossed the line when she committed a felony trying to evade detainment and being negligent about accelerating her vehicle while the involved ICE agent was maneuvering around it. That negligence created an alignment of circumstances where the ice agent was struck and made him believe his life was in danger and she got shot in perceived self defence - irrespective of her intent.

Honestly Grizzly, it looks like you went away, searched some conservative subreddits for arguments, and came back here thinking this would be a triumphant return. It isn't. Cops aren't allowed to step in front of moving or operating cars and then shoot the driver claiming self-defense. This has literally been established in the courts. You seriously must have found this tactic in an echo-chamber.

All of this is in the released videos. You should review them.

There can be a discussion as to the actual degree of threat to his life involved. But that's a luxury we only have granted through hindsight. There is ample precedent where hesitation gets officers killed and that hesitation only takes one second. You don't get to do in-depth rationalization when you have a two thousand pound vehicle driving in your direction.

I am a person who used to walk through my city a whole lot. As a result I have had more than a few times where some incompetent driver managed to hit me or nearly hit me with their car. Twice I ended up on their car hood. 90% of the time it was someone who was (illegally) turning right or left on red and didn't bother to check the other direction before gunning it. - But here's the thing, accelerating a car from a standstill into something single-digit feet away isn't a very good way to kill someone. A lot of the time I was able to evade the car having it only brush me slightly or miss me entirely (although I was vocal about things). The two times I couldn't dodge and ended up on the hood I saw the car heading accelerating towards me my thought wasn't "This problem would be solved if the driver was dead".

Even if Agent Ross was struck (doubtful) he was barely injured and showed he was able to get out of the way. Ergo he had no justification for the psychotic lethal response he gave especially given that he caused the circumstances in the first place.

This "self-defense" tactic is just pathetic at this point.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

This DHS “motto” is truly terrifying.

It’s just SO close to the strategy the SS had in Poland and elsewhere. Except in this case the “yours” is not just freedom fighters, partisans and the underground but the American people writ large.

“Sounded better in the original German” was never more appropriate.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Cold War Steve

 

[Jack by the hedge]

This DHS “motto” is truly terrifying.

It’s just SO close to the strategy the SS had in Poland and elsewhere. Except in this case the “yours” is not just freedom fighters, partisans and the underground but the American people writ large.

“Sounded better in the original German” was never more appropriate.

Someone decided the theme is revenge. The slogan for law enforcement should be that their mission is to take revenge. Exactly like the Dear Leader with that propaganda poster of himself "Once I was the hunted, now I am the hunter" or however it was worded. It was entirely about revenge. Revenge first, America very much second. This presidency is the end of The Godfather spread over 4 years.

And, by the way, Cuba needs to watch out because Michael Corleone wants revenge for losing his Havana casino business.

 

[Armitage72]

Someone decided the theme is revenge. The slogan for law enforcement should be that their mission is to take revenge. Exactly like the Dear Leader with that propaganda poster of himself "Once I was the hunted, now I am the hunter" or however it was worded. It was entirely about revenge. Revenge first, America very much second. This presidency is the end of The Godfather spread over 4 years.

And, by the way, Cuba needs to watch out because Michael Corleone wants revenge for losing his Havana casino business.

Trump has always been about revenge. His vendetta against wind turbines is revenge for losing the lawsuit to remove the ones off the coast from his golf course in Scotland. The whole reason he finally decided to run for President was revenge for the jokes President Obama made about him at the 2011 White House Correspondents Dinner.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

To an outsider looking in I find it startling that Americans seem to be completely fine with the highest level politicians blatantly lying about the murder by a government agent of a US citizen. I think it's a combination of boiling a frog and that most Americans are insulated from the antics of the increasingly brutal regime. Most probably think that if they keep their heads down their nice little lives will continue to be unaffected. There was a bloke in Germany who wrote a poem about that.

Ironic that Trump talked about "◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊" countries in Africa and elsewhere. He and the heritage foundation are doing a great job of turning the USA into one. Not that middle class America cares enough to risk losing what will eventually be taken from them.

 

[Lerxst]

To an outsider looking in I find it startling that Americans seem to be completely fine with the highest level politicians blatantly lying about the murder by a government agent of a US citizen. I think it's a combination of boiling a frog and that most Americans are insulated from the antics of the increasingly brutal regime. Most probably think that if they keep their heads down their nice little lives will continue to be unaffected. There was a bloke in Germany who wrote a poem about that.

Ironic that Trump talked about "◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊" countries in Africa and elsewhere. He and the heritage foundation are doing a great job of turning the USA into one. Not that middle class America cares enough to risk losing what will eventually be taken from them.

Most of us are not completely fine with it. Some of us are also keenly aware though (not enough of us I worry) that the play is to provoke massive violent uprisings so the government can justify martial law and seizing absolute power, something that I highly suspected was going to happen on J6.

 

[Lerxst]

The "good reason" is that they want to foment violence. They want the protestors to fight back, because that will justify bringing in jackbooted thugs and martial law, and that will allow them to impose their rule over the whole country.

It's all deliberate. The cruelty is the point.

It is to the credit of the American citizenry that they are refraining from violent response as much as they are, that they are protesting peacefully and in frog costumes, rather than with masks and molotov cocktails. It undermines their entire narrative of "violent antifa domestic terrorists".

This. I do worry though that not enough people understand this, and humans after all often override any reason with emotion.

 

[Andy_Ross]

To an outsider looking in I find it startling that Americans seem to be completely fine with the highest level politicians blatantly lying about the murder by a government agent of a US citizen. I think it's a combination of boiling a frog and that most Americans are insulated from the antics of the increasingly brutal regime. Most probably think that if they keep their heads down their nice little lives will continue to be unaffected. There was a bloke in Germany who wrote a poem about that.

Ironic that Trump talked about "◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊" countries in Africa and elsewhere. He and the heritage foundation are doing a great job of turning the USA into one. Not that middle class America cares enough to risk losing what will eventually be taken from them

In the interview with Jesse Ventura posted a few days ago he said the US has become a third world country.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I am a person who used to walk through my city a whole lot. As a result I have had more than a few times where some incompetent driver managed to hit me or nearly hit me with their car. Twice I ended up on their car hood. 90% of the time it was someone who was (illegally) turning right or left on red and didn't bother to check the other direction before gunning it. - But here's the thing, accelerating a car from a standstill into something single-digit feet away isn't a very good way to kill someone. A lot of the time I was able to evade the car having it only brush me slightly or miss me entirely (although I was vocal about things). The two times I couldn't dodge and ended up on the hood I saw the car heading accelerating towards me my thought wasn't "This problem would be solved if the driver was dead".

I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm sure you feel this story is relevant... but it's not. Completely different set of circumstances.
Additionally, your rationalization that the vehicle "accelerating from 0 to something" in the span of "single-digit feet" is "not a very good way to unalive someone" is also..... a non-sequitor. I shouldn't really have to explain why at this point.

Even if Agent Ross was struck (doubtful) he was barely injured and showed he was able to get out of the way. Ergo he had no justification for the psychotic lethal response he gave especially given that he caused the circumstances in the first place.

This "self-defense" tactic is just pathetic at this point.

This video sums up my point pretty good without me having to write yet another paragraph. It would do you some benefit to familiarize yourself with what the law says about it.

Honestly Grizzly, it looks like you went away, searched some conservative subreddits for arguments, and came back here thinking this would be a triumphant return. It isn't. Cops aren't allowed to step in front of moving or operating cars and then shoot the driver claiming self-defense. This has literally been established in the courts. You seriously must have found this tactic in an echo-chamber.

Cute remark. But doesn't add anything to the discussion.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Someone decided the theme is revenge. The slogan for law enforcement should be that their mission is to take revenge. Exactly like the Dear Leader with that propaganda poster of himself "Once I was the hunted, now I am the hunter" or however it was worded. It was entirely about revenge. Revenge first, America very much second. This presidency is the end of The Godfather spread over 4 years.

And, by the way, Cuba needs to watch out because Michael Corleone wants revenge for losing his Havana casino business.

And Trump wants that gold telephone.

 

[kookbreaker]

I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm sure you feel this story is relevant... but it's not. Completely different set of circumstances.

I love how ICE-enablers always try to handwave away my experiences. It is most certainly relevant. His actual life was in no true danger from a car accelerating and mine wasn't either. Neither of us had justification for murdering the driver.

This video sums up my point pretty good without me having to write yet another paragraph. It would do you some benefit to familiarize yourself with what the law says about it.

Argument by Youtube is mocked when Conspiracy nutters use it, so why should you be treated any less? Maybe someone else with the time and patience will watch that but I won't. If you can't explain your argument in your own words there is no reason for it to be taken seriously.

Meanwhile on this thread there have been multiple citations of the procedures he violated to lead us to this situation, as well is listings of court cases where cops were found to be in the wrong for exactly what Ross did.

Again it looks like you ran to a conservative echo chamber and started grabbing arguments.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

From a post on Threads: “Die Bevölkerung haftet mit” (“The population bears responsibility”)”.

 

[Lerxst]

Why is anyone arguing self-defense instead of excessive use of force? This was not two civilians that got into an argument, this was an armed federal agent killing a civilian while on duty. Different legal standard entirely. If this officer is ever prosecuted (and I doubt they will be) it is more likely that the legal standard for excessive use of force will be applied, not self-defense.

What Legally Constitutes Excessive Use of Force – My Legal Tips

Force In Context: Deadly, Lethal, And Non-Lethal Uses​

Classification matters: deadly force is lawful only when a threat of serious bodily harm or death is present. Non-lethal or less-than-lethal methods must still be reasonable under the circumstances. Proportionality is a guiding principle: the severity of the force should correspond to the threat level. A use of force may be considered excessive if it persists after the risk has diminished or if safer alternatives would have accomplished the objective without risking unnecessary harm.

Key Factors Courts Consider​

• Severity Of the Crime: A minor offense generally warrants less force than a violent, ongoing threat.
• Immediacy Of Threat: Active, imminent danger permits more decisive action; passive or non-threatening situations call for restraint.
• Resistance Level: Passive compliance requires less force than active, forceful resistance.
• Alternative Means: Verbal commands, de-escalation, or retreat may reduce the need for force.
• Availability Of Backup And Training: Officers trained in de-escalation and tactical options influence what is considered reasonable.
• Timeliness Of Assessment: On-scene judgments are made under stress; post-incident reviews provide additional context.

This also assumes he had the legal right to detain her or give her any order whatsoever, which is highly questionable considering jurisdictional standard to start with, without even considering what probable cause they had to detain a US citizen.

But I am sure the government being confident in their position will have no problem making sure Ross gets his day in court so they can prove him right (this is sarcasm in case anyone was wondering).

 

[sackett]

When you decide to accept some one else's lies as truth because they make you feel
strong, that's bad enough. But when you repeat their lies aloud, broadcasting
them to others, they become your lies, and you become a liar.

Not even a primary liar, but a weak little secondary liar, really just a servant
to the prominent ones, who may profit from your efforts but who will never,
ever, share anything with the likes of you.