• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

True Skeptics Cannot be Religious

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fluffy The One Na

Bri said:
Perhaps the only way for science to truly recognize a god is for him to bring into existance an exact replica of the universe from nothing. Then there would be little doubt that he would be at least equal to any notion of a god that includes that god creating the universe. -Bri
My problem with this would be where would this second universe go? Next to ours? But the universe has no start and no end, so how could it?
Okay then, within our Universe then, but where? Would it mean we suddenly have two of everything? Two moons, two suns etc. Would this not play havoc with physics?
How would we be able to see this new universe if physics was going all potty?
If god adjusted the rules so we could see it, then how would we know that we were seeing something miraculous at all?

If god made it all in a snow-globe then how would we study it - for all the same reasons above?

And after all that - I'm still with jmercer on the point of technology being magical to primitives.

To me this lack of a clear means to demonstrate god really makes the whole god-notion silly.
 
Bri said:
... since it's impossible to know one way or another whether God actually exists, much less exactly how God thinks if he does exist.
-Bri

I am seeing that the emotional need for a guardian is so strong that we will bend all logic and definitions to invent one.

What I don't understand is why no-one wants to accept the benificence of Fluffy the One Navel of Goodness?
I mean Fluffy cannot be disproven, so climb aboard the Fluff-train.

:rolleyes:
 
Bri said:
... (science says we can't have free will, but God allows for it). I, for one, can fully understand how some find it extremely tempting to believe in a god if it means that we are more than just robots.

I didn't know Science says this, does it really? (I doubt it)

I used to think this way. That we are all robots programmed to breed and die and that the whole thing was heartless and meaningless.
This is a way to make valid the notion of us being special to God - it doesn't make it right. It's a fallacy - can't recall the name of said fallacy, but then I can never recall them when I need to!

But - since I have started reading about evolution and reading these forums, I have started to see another even more startling possibility: To me it is amazing how fragile we (humans) are and how special that makes us in the face of such forces that move around us.

We are special because of ourselves - not because of something above us that loves us. It's only us, the fact that we are here at all.
 
Donn said:
I guess this is where I don't grok it:
Valid reasons = Evidence
Valid reasons != Lack of evidence

Without evidence, what reason could be valid?

Evidence exists in the form of personal experience. Not scientific caliber of course, but a valid reason for an individual, even a skeptical one, to have belief in something, whether god or psychic abilities.

PS - Please put me out of my misery and link me to a larger image of your avatar! I just can't make head or tails of it :biggrin:

I am delighted to. I'd post it here, but I'm too technologically inept to manage that. The avatar is from one of my favorite pictures my artist husband did called "Dragon takes Pawn". You can find that particular picture at http://markclarkson.com/ArtPages/Dragon.html. Plenty of his other artwork is available at his site markclarkson.com. Also, he's just opened up a new professional site for his work called photoshopwhore.com. I like to show off his work. I think he's terrific! Anyway, I'm sorry you can't make heads or tails out of it. He warned me about reducing it to the small size needed for an avatar. I'll consider changing it.

Beth
 
Beth said:
Evidence exists in the form of personal experience. Not scientific caliber of course, but a valid reason for an individual, even a skeptical one, to have belief in something, whether god or psychic abilities.

But, if we are to stem the tide of "anything goes", surely we have to agree on what "valid" means?

It strikes me that belief can have many modes. One can be a sneaking-suspicion about something.
Another is the more common one - where you pray and pay based on the belief.
I would say you can have a healthy version of the first but when you move into the second, you have lost your objectivity.

A personal experience is only "evidence" to one person. Doesn't the word "evidence" imply some kind of common study, some kind of plurality of experience of said evidence?

I have powerful evidence of Fluffy The Navel Of Goodness. It was an experience only I had, that prooves Fluffy's existence.

This is (if I understand you) valid evidence for me to believe in Fluffy.

Where do we draw the line?

How do we say "Look, this is in the set of the real and that is in the set of the imagined"?

If that is not possible - then how do we at least minimize the zone of bullsh*t that cannot be extirpated?

You can find that particular picture at http://markclarkson.com/ArtPages/Dragon.html.
To my horror - the link seems to be broken :eek:

And don't change your avatar - it gives my pareidolia such free reign. Before I see the bigger image, I'll tell you what it looks like to me: A Cthulu kind of tentacle reaching from a fireplace with sucker like fingers poised above the chessboard.
It bends my brain more than Yog Sottoth could ever do!
:biggrin:
 
Donn said:
But, if we are to stem the tide of "anything goes", surely we have to agree on what "valid" means?

It strikes me that belief can have many modes. One can be a sneaking-suspicion about something.
Another is the more common one - where you pray and pay based on the belief.
I would say you can have a healthy version of the first but when you move into the second, you have lost your objectivity.

A personal experience is only "evidence" to one person. Doesn't the word "evidence" imply some kind of common study, some kind of plurality of experience of said evidence?

I have powerful evidence of Fluffy The Navel Of Goodness. It was an experience only I had, that prooves Fluffy's existence.

This is (if I understand you) valid evidence for me to believe in Fluffy.

Where do we draw the line?

How do we say "Look, this is in the set of the real and that is in the set of the imagined"?

If that is not possible - then how do we at least minimize the zone of bullsh*t that cannot be extirpated?

Good questions all. These are very basic fundamental questions. I'm sorry, but I don't have any pat answers handy. DeCarte was contemplating similar questions centuries ago. Personally, I think that's the reason so many people who have had inexplicable experiences seek out others with similar experiences - to either validate or reject their own experiences based on how well they match up to other peoples and their opinion of those other people. People who have had religious experiences congregate and reinforce their beliefs regarding their experiences and what it means.

That is one reason why I feel the sheer numbers of people who had religious experiences constitutes evidence, albeit weak evidence, for the existance of some sort of deity. However, since you are the only one who's experienced Fluffy, I'll have to weight him/her/it corresponding lower than the more popular gods such as Thor and Zeus. :)

To my horror - the link seems to be broken :eek:

Sorry about that. Thanks to jmercer for posting the correction.

And don't change your avatar - it gives my pareidolia such free reign. Before I see the bigger image, I'll tell you what it looks like to me: A Cthulu kind of tentacle reaching from a fireplace with sucker like fingers poised above the chessboard.
It bends my brain more than Yog Sottoth could ever do!
:biggrin:

I'm glad you like the avatar, but I've been thinking about changing it anyway. However I'm lazy and inept at graphics so I probably won't bother for some time.

What does pareidolia mean? My small desk dictionary doesn't list it.

Mark made a picture/campaign poster last fall, before the election, proclaiming "Cthulu - why vote for a lessor evil". I don't think he has it posted on his site, so I'll have to see if I can get his help in putting up here.
 
Beth said:
What does pareidolia mean? My small desk dictionary doesn't list it.

Here ya go, Beth - Here's the Wiki link... and an excerpt:

Wikipedia
Pareidolia (from Greek para- amiss, faulty, wrong + eidolon, diminutive of eidos appearance, form) is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (usually an image) being mistakenly perceived as recognizable. Common examples include images of animals or faces in clouds, seeing the man in the moon, and hearing messages on records played in reverse.

Hope that helps. :)
 
Thanks j, I dunno why that period threw me - I been busy I guess.

Beth said:
Good questions all. These are very basic fundamental questions. I'm sorry, but I don't have any pat answers handy. DeCarte was contemplating similar questions centuries ago.
Nothing new under the sun eh? Sounds like I should be reading-up of Descartes (DeCarte? Not sure about the spelling here - sounds like a food-tray on a fancy train:))

Personally, I think that's the reason so many people who have had inexplicable experiences seek out others with similar experiences - to either validate or reject their own experiences based on how well they match up to other peoples and their opinion of those other people. People who have had religious experiences congregate and reinforce their beliefs regarding their experiences and what it means.
Great observation - yeah, it's also like UFO conventions and any number of other cons. Even TAM ! ! ! :eek:

I guess I must be weird because I eschew crowds!

That is one reason why I feel the sheer numbers of people who had religious experiences constitutes evidence, albeit weak evidence, for the existance of some sort of deity. However, since you are the only one who's experienced Fluffy, I'll have to weight him/her/it corresponding lower than the more popular gods such as Thor and Zeus. :)
Ain't there a fallacy in the numbers game?
And how do you know that all those people have not really been feeling the loving touch of Fluffy? Okay, Fluffy aside - how do you know there is that much common among those many experiences? perhaps there are millions of individual notions.
And how do you tell them apart from mental conditions?

I'm just saying that the supernatural, largest-possible-imaginable explanation (god/Fluffy/karma) is not the best fit.

I can't understand why sceptics would make that jump across the platform of agnosticism into the nonsensical levels of belief.

Belief is also a verb. You have to put energy into it. But without any more solid reason that "I feel it's right" - that's plain strange to me!

What does pareidolia mean? My small desk dictionary doesn't list it.
http://skepdic.com/pareidol.html

Great pic of the dragon now that I can see it, BTW.
 
Bri,

Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Bri said:
You would probably need to do controls with people who didn't claim any psychic ability and compare the results of the psychics to those of the common folk. If there is a statistically signficiant increase in "hits" from the psychics, you might have a basis for belief.

I'm sorry, but I'm not talking about the theoretical possibility of such testing, I'm talking about people who have experiences such as the dream I described. It really isn't possible for the average person to test something in that manner, so they have to make a decision based on their own experiences.

Isn't the whole point that the psychic has an ability that a non-psychic doesn't? If we all have the ability, then the ability isn't special. If the ability isn't useful in any way, then it's also not particularly special. In order for something to be believed, one should first examine the evidence, then examine whether there are any reasons to believe. I see no reason to believe in a psychic ability that has no use.
No, many self-identified psychics claim that everyone posseses such abilities. Think of it as being a skill, like playing the piano. Anyone can sit at a keyboard and make noises. Virtually everyone could learn to make pleasing noises with practice. However, some people will be more naturally adept than others.

As far as the usefulness goes, I must disagree. Whether or not exists is unrelated to whether or not it is of use.

Many "psychics" actually only recognize that a dream predicted a future event after that event already occurred. Of course, they forget or ignore all of the dreams that didn't come true. This is not a phychic ability at all since it is true of all people (every once in a while a dream will come true).

I must disagree again. This is NOT a universal experience, though it does seem to be relatively common. Twice in my life I have been in a room where the question was asked "Who here has experienced a dream that later came true." In both cases, less than half the people present raised their hands.

But let's say that a psychic "knows" when a dream they've had is going to come true. Simply comparing the psychic's selected dreams against random dreams of a large number of people who don't claim any psychic abilities would determine whether the psychic's dreams were more useful at predicting the future than the average person's. If the psychic consistently performed significantly better (statistically speaking) than the non-psychics this would indicate that the psychic might have a useful ability, at least moreso than the average person.Of course you would not want the person being tested to keep their own journal or make determinations about how closely dreams matched reality. There would also have to be some third-party documentation of events that the psychic claims to be a "match," which might be difficult. Difficult, but not impossible.

I'm afraid that there are some serious practical implementation problems with this suggested testing scenario. Difficult is an understatement. There are many many practical problems in running such a study. It would be very expensive and take years. Who would do it? Who would pay for it? How would subjects be recruited? How would 'matches' be determined and verified? And until such a study has been done, the person who has experienced such dreams must decide what to believe without such helpful data.

In your example above, the psychic could carry around a camera and take pictures of things that were predicted in the dream journal. Things become even easier if the psychic is willing to make very specific predictions that could later be validated (this would also demonstrate a more useful kind of psychic ability). Psychics are tested all the time (and always fail at what they themselves claim to believe they can do).Your example isn't a very good one because it's testable (most claims of that type are testable).

If the person cannot control the ability of what they will foresee and doesn't have any knowledge of when the foreseen event will occur, it's essentially impossible to make specific predictions that could be validated. Again, if one's experience is that such things happen, but cannot be controlled, testing becomes impossible on a practicable level even if theoretically possible through the use of large samples and statistical analysis. In the meantime, the person is left with a set of experiences that indicate the existance of some sort of psychic ability.

It might be possible to come up with an example that somehow isn't testable, and then I would probably say that if you have valid reasons for believing in it, then you can still be a skeptic and believe in it. That doesn't mean that I would also believe it. I might not find your reasons to be compelling enough to believe in it, or I might have my own reasons for not choosing to believe in it, but the very nature of something being untestable is that it might actually be true.

-Bri

Thanks. That's a nice concluding statement. Certainly, it's understandable that personal experiences would not be convincing evidence to others. But I think it's reasonable to acknowledge that otherwise unexplanable personal experiences are convincing evidence to those who have them, whether they be related to the existance of God or the existance of psi and grant that people could believe that either are possible without violating the principles of skeptism. It is, after all, about how you come to conclusions, not about what conclusions you come to.
 
Donn said:
Thanks j, I dunno why that period threw me - I been busy I guess.


Nothing new under the sun eh? Sounds like I should be reading-up of Descartes (DeCarte? Not sure about the spelling here - sounds like a food-tray on a fancy train:))

Er, yes. Your spelling is better than mine. Sorry.

Great observation - yeah, it's also like UFO conventions and any number of other cons. Even TAM ! ! ! :eek:
Yes, I think that is true. I can understand it certainly. You have a strange experience, you seek out other people with similar experiences to see what conclusions they have come to. If you admire then and find their conclusions reasonable, you will likely adopt similar conclusions about your own experiences.
I guess I must be weird because I eschew crowds!
Well, weird you may be, but you're in good company. My dh works out of our home and avoids leaving the house as much as possible. :)

Ain't there a fallacy in the numbers game?
And how do you know that all those people have not really been feeling the loving touch of Fluffy? Okay, Fluffy aside - how do you know there is that much common among those many experiences? perhaps there are millions of individual notions.
And how do you tell them apart from mental conditions?
Yes, there's an inherent fallacy in the numbers game. OTOH, when you're dealing with unreplicable, untestable subjective experience, there's also a great deal of comfort in it. As far as telling them apart from mental conditions, the numbers game helps there. There's an old joke about one person who believes something weird is insane. Two people are a cult. Three or more people and it's a religion. That's the comfort aspect of it. If everybody but you had red/green color blindness and you were the only person who could distinguish between them, you might think you were crazy. But if you can find others with similar experiences, you can conclude you are not crazy, just in a minority.

I'm just saying that the supernatural, largest-possible-imaginable explanation (god/Fluffy/karma) is not the best fit.

I can't understand why sceptics would make that jump across the platform of agnosticism into the nonsensical levels of belief.

Belief is also a verb. You have to put energy into it. But without any more solid reason that "I feel it's right" - that's plain strange to me!
Skeptics are not immune to strange experiences. It's not unreasonable for skeptics, just like everyone else, to seek the comfort of being with others who have had similar experiences and that rather naturally and frequently leads to a congruence of belief about the cause and meaning of those experiences.

Great pic of the dragon now that I can see it, BTW.

Glad you liked it. I'll pass the compliment on to the artist.

Beth
 
Sorry - I didn't mean to be unclear. What I'm saying is that religions are probably not a very good source for an accurate description of any given God(s).

They're pretty much the only source.

There are many reasons for that, but the fundamental one is that religions are created by people about entities that are supposedly so far beyond human that there's no real comparison.

"far beyond human" is a comparison. Please, don't start with this "it's undefinable" woo business. That's non-sense.

Using religion to disprove God is as fallacious as using religion to prove the existence of God.

Who's using religion to disprove god? I was using directly observed objective phenominon. I was using the standard definition of god, but what of it? We don't label claims as untrue simply because you could redefine someone's terms and make it untrue.

Hey, you asked for evidence.

Hey, no I didn't. You asked for evidence and I provided it.

You didn't specify scientific evidence - and the bible (and personal testimonies) are indeed evidence. Weak, anecdotal evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

Well, strong evidence trumps weak evidence. I guess god doesn't exist.
 
CaptainManacles said:
They're pretty much the only source.

Not hardly. :)

CaptainManacles said:

"far beyond human" is a comparison. Please, don't start with this "it's undefinable" woo business. That's non-sense.

Oh? So... if there is a God, S/He is the rough equivalent of an average, everyday human? Same general wants, needs, desires, thought-patterns, perceptions, skills, instincts, etc.? Nothing at all that is beyond the pale, in spite of being the creator of the universe, literally older than dirt, has powers that are supposedly unlimited... Please provide some justification for why an eternal non-human, all-powerful being wouldn't be "far beyond human". :)

CaptainManacles said:

Who's using religion to disprove god? I was using directly observed objective phenominon. I was using the standard definition of god, but what of it? We don't label claims as untrue simply because you could redefine someone's terms and make it untrue.

Hmm. I guess we'll just have to chalk this one up as a misunderstanding between us. Probably contextual or semantical. :)

CaptainManacles said:

Hey, no I didn't. You asked for evidence and I provided it.

I apologize. You most certainly did NOT ask for evidence, and I somehow ended up responding to you as if you had. Here's the person (and quote) I was responding to:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anders W. Bonde
jmercer,

I'm game - I would love for you to point out just some piece of evidence for the existence of an entity that by broad consent may be termed a god!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To which I provided a link to the King James Version of the Bible. My bad - must be advancing age. :D

CaptainManacles said:

Well, strong evidence trumps weak evidence. I guess god doesn't exist.

Yep, it sure does. Let me know when you can show me some strong evidence about God's non-existence. :)
 
jmercer,

Thanks for the link!:)

The Bible, however, only provides anecdotal evidence pertaining to the Judeo-Christian god, which is just a sub-set of numerous god-claims made throughout recorded history. What about all the competing gods before and since? Why should the Bible's fairy-tales be more compelling evidence than any other myths? Personally, I rather liked the Norse gods because they liked their beer and crumpet...:p

The Bible may well be construed as anecdotal evidence, but as its accounts and descriptions are demonstrably flawed and self-contradictory in both empirical and logical context, it should, IMHO, absolutely not be compelling to anyone applying skepticism and critical thinking in the study of it.

So where, then, is the compelling evidence for the existence of any deity? If it exists, it had better be top-notch and abundant, since the evidence supporting the hypothesis - or is it actually theory? - that the concept of deities is merely a human philosophical and cultural construct is, IMHO, absolutely overwhelming, near-impossble to refute and supported by falsifiable observation and theory (think of the Cargo Religion, for instance).

The religious claim that there 'is' one or more gods, but their claims contradict and self-contradict in the context of both their own and competing liturgies. Even by their own definitions and perverse logic they can't all be right - but they can all easily be wrong.

Based on the evidence for and against the existence of any god,(s) fitting the discriptions provided by their proponents, that I have encountered and been presented with so far, I choose to believe that no gods exist (i.e. 'strong' atheism) - but should the balance of evidence be swayed by new evidence, I'm ready to change my position. Having said that, in the interim I don't give a flying f@rt that this approach may not constitute philosphical kosher - I regard it as merely being a practical approach to life, nature and reality. Being agnostic about 'god' would also, were I to play along with the philosophers, as in never being able to search the Universe to prove a negative, logically force me to be agnostic about IPU, FSM or any other silly notion anyone could ever dream up. I cannot see in practical terms how the 'purist' agnostic philosophical and logical position differs from or is more practical than that most useless of all philosophies: Solipsism. But then again, I may have missed something somewhere...
 
Donn said:
Valid reasons = Evidence
Valid reasons != Lack of evidence

Theism/atheism is about belief, specifically belief in the existance of a god.

Gnosticism/agnosticism is about knowledge, specifically whether it is possible to know for certain whether a god exists.

A claim of knowledge as to whether or not a god exists would require proof to be valid.

But a belief is only an opinion, it's not knowledge. For someone to believe that a god exists or that no gods exist would only require valid reasons for that belief to be valid.

Reasons can vary, and may be overridden by actual evidence, especially difinitive evidence. For example, if someone had proof that God exists, a strong atheist's belief that no gods exist would be invalid.

However, when it comes to the existance of God, there is no overwhelming evidence for or against. Therefore, the strong atheist and the theist must rely on other reasons for their beliefs.

-Bri
 
I seems to me, true skeptics cannot be believers in major religions like Christianity or Islam. Religion, by definition, demands that its followers suspend critical thinking.

If you are a skeptic and demand evidence for everything else in your life, but then you make this one exception for your religion, you are corrupting your skepticism, and you are not a true skeptic.



OK, then, I am an "untrue" skeptic. Howver I seek and "request"
evidence even for Christianity.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fluffy The On

Donn said:
My problem with this would be where would this second universe go?

Well, I don't even think the notion of a second universe is necessary for God to prove his existance, but let's say that God created a universe inside of a glass sphere, an exact replica of our universe but smaller. That would kind of make us gods to those people in the mini-universe, wouldn't it? But it would certainly be pretty strong evidence that God could have created our universe.

And after all that - I'm still with jmercer on the point of technology being magical to primitives.

This argument is one often used by people who believe in the paranormal. Sure, science can't explain the paranormal, but then science couldn't explain how the earth revolves around the sun either. Once it is proven to be true, science simply changes to incorporate the truth, so someday science will consider a psychic to no longer be paranormal.

True, if science could somehow explain a god, it might cease to be a god. But if there is a real god who isn't limited by nature, then science would never be able to explain it. Therefore, that god could do something that might never be explained by science, such as creating a rubber ducky out of thin air. Just because science might come up with some sort of an explanation of this, the explanation would likely be that everything follows quantum physics except for things influenced by a newly discovered force known as "God."

Alternately, God could just force us all to believe in him, which would certainly prove his existance -- at least to us!

Finally, even if God couldn't prove his own existance, he could provide overwhelming evidence of it. Can you prove your existance? Yet science considers it a fact that you exist. I imagine that God could accomplish at least that.

-Bri
 
Donn said:
I am seeing that the emotional need for a guardian is so strong that we will bend all logic and definitions to invent one.

Don't take my comment out of context. jmercer wrote:

That's a good question; the issue is that I have no idea why God (if He exists) does anything at all, especially why he would spend time with a bunch of silly apes like us.

My response was simply a possible answer to his question of why God might spend time with a bunch of silly apes like us.

I didn't say that fulfilling an emotional need is necessarily the best reason or that it necessarily overshadows other reasons one might have to believe one way or the other. That said, fulfillment of an emotional need would be a valid reason to believe in God.


What I don't understand is why no-one wants to accept the benificence of Fluffy the One Navel of Goodness?
I mean Fluffy cannot be disproven, so climb aboard the Fluff-train.

As warm and fuzzy as I find the notion of Fluffy to be, others might not take such comfort in the existance of the One Navel of Goodness. Of course, the establishment of a new god takes time, and there's plenty of competition these days. Fluffy might want to get a good agent.

-Bri
 
Donn said:
I didn't know Science says this, does it really? (I doubt it)

Science currently has little evidence of free will, and plenty of evidence against it. The most-widely accepted scientific theory on free will is that it doesn't exist.


I used to think this way. That we are all robots programmed to breed and die and that the whole thing was heartless and meaningless.
This is a way to make valid the notion of us being special to God - it doesn't make it right. It's a fallacy - can't recall the name of said fallacy, but then I can never recall them when I need to!

Please don't misunderstand what I wrote! I never claimed that free will is in any way evidence of the existance of God or vice-versa. I simply said that if God exists, it would allow for the possibility of free will. That's a reason to believe in the existance of God, but it is not in any way proof of (probably not even evidence of) the existance of God.


But - since I have started reading about evolution and reading these forums, I have started to see another even more startling possibility: To me it is amazing how fragile we (humans) are and how special that makes us in the face of such forces that move around us.

We are special because of ourselves - not because of something above us that loves us. It's only us, the fact that we are here at all.

I agree that there are valid reasons to feel that human beings are special without a belief in God.

We are certainly special to other human beings. Human beings are also different from animals, although defining those differences is difficult indeed.

-Bri
 
kathy1948 said:
I seems to me, true skeptics cannot be believers in major religions like Christianity or Islam. Religion, by definition, demands that its followers suspend critical thinking.

If you are a skeptic and demand evidence for everything else in your life, but then you make this one exception for your religion, you are corrupting your skepticism, and you are not a true skeptic.



OK, then, I am an "untrue" skeptic. Howver I seek and "request"
evidence even for Christianity.

Welcome to the forum Kathy.

Your position is a popular one here, but so is the opposing position that skeptism is solely a methodology that helps people to evaluate and justify our beliefs, but does not dictate what those beliefs should be. At any rate, there are many threads here on the subject. Enjoy!

Beth
 

Back
Top Bottom