Tricky Bibi?

[ddt]

I agree. When ddt mentions B'tselem and points out why s/he does, I read that one more like an afterthought as well.

O RLY? It's the only comprehensive database of casualties in the I/P conflict I know of, and I've been referencing it for years, on this board and others. I've even made scripts to analyze the data in it, see this IIDB thread from 2.5 years ago.

I guess I also "insist on continuing" to "intentionally misinterpret[ ddt's] posts and lying about their contents". At least it makes it easier for ddt.

Do you agree with Pardalis' summaries of my posts here and in the "stone throwing" thread (see my signature)? A simple yes/no answer suffices.

 

[Doctor Evil]

In some ways, Sharon and Olmert's actions indicate that Netanyahu failed -- at least in part.

My point was that at the time this video was taken, both Olmert and Sharon were in the same camp as Netanyahu. It was meant to show that a lot have changed since then. Did Netanyahu also have changed? He probably did. Is he flexible enough to close a peace deal? I do not know, but I do not think that a peace deal in the near future. (I think that both sides are not really interested in negotiating seriously at this point. Instead both just try to have the other side blamed for what they see as the likely failure of talks.)

 

[Pardalis]

(see my signature)

I think your obsession with me is rather creepy.

 

[Lamafarmer]

I think your obsession with me is rather creepy.

I've even made scripts to analyze the data in it

I would like to decline to comment on this.

Do you agree with Pardalis' summaries of my posts here and in the "stone throwing" thread (see my signature)? A simple yes/no answer suffices.

A simple yes/no answer does not suffice. The problem between you two I see is, he asks (perhaps somewhat loaded) questions, mainly to clarify. You don't see this and assume him to be asking rhetorical questions. I don't. But generally, yes, I guess I would also like to have clarification on some questions (I tried, you didn't want to bother) regarding your posts and I do read much of what you say in the same way as Pardalis does.

 

[Virus]

Bill Clinton said the Camp David failure was Arafat's fault:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/ClintonMyLife.html

 

[Skeptic]

Ah, but he's just a tool of the nefarious Jews "overly influenced by AIPAC".

 

[Virus]

Ah, but he's just a tool of the nefarious Jews "overly influenced by AIPAC".

I get a laugh out of that every time. Despite all the Jewish puppet strings America gives billions to the Palestinian Authority. They'd all be out of the job if it wasn't for US, Israeli and EU welfare. And what do they do with all that money? Piss it up the wall.

Maybe the US should threaten to cut them off the dole if they don't reform and get their **** together.

 

[FireGarden]

You also missed the part where Netenyahoo said, "What were the Olso Accords? The Olso Accords, which the Knesset signed, I was asked, before the elections: “Will you act according to them?” and I answered: “yes, subject to mutuality and limiting the retreats.”

I just don't see the supposed smoking gun in this video.

Try this bit:

But then the question came up of just who would define what Defined Military Sites were. I received a letter – to my and to Arafat, at the same time – which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron Agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: “I’m not signing.” Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to my and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron Agreement. Or rather, ratify it, it had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo Accord.

My point was that at the time this video was taken, both Olmert and Sharon were in the same camp as Netanyahu. It was meant to show that a lot have changed since then. Did Netanyahu also have changed? He probably did.

Of course he might have changed. But I won't believe he has until he takes concrete steps to set up a Palestinian state.

 

[a_unique_person]

Ah, I see, it's everbody else's fault (Netanyahu, Clinton, AIPAC, Obama not being in his second term, and even W. Bush...) except the Palestinian authority, and yet it's the Palestinians who launched a brutal intifada merely a month after the negotiations stopped.

Funny how you never mention them.

I think that launching an Intifada was a major stumbling block for any possibility for further negotiations, but that's just me.

Before the intifada was started, Oslo was dead. What block was needed? Netanyahu seems to welcome any violent resistance, it gives him an excuse to crush the Palestinians, and take their land. The woman seems to expect the violence that the sabotaging of Oslo produced, as being a logical consequence of the end of Oslo.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Don't quite get the major significance behind this video, especially with the far-fetched claims of what the Richardsilverstein website claims, of which my favorite one reminds me of the fabricated quote of Sharon of 'we control America' libel. The core issue here that Oslo was already dead in the water before Netanyahu stepped into the picture, primarily, and quite obviously, due to the extortionist leadership of Arafat. The Clinton administration, which was also pro-Palestinian, has stated this in the past.

Nothing has changed since the times of Arafat and there's no reason that this will change when the PA has never made any steps, including the phased plans stated in Oslo, when no demands have been made against the PA except the constant imposition of concessions by Israel.

 

[a_unique_person]

It's not what Silverstein claims, it's what Netanyahu says.

 

[bigjelmapro]

No, its what Silverstein exaggerates of what Netanyahu states.

 

[a_unique_person]

What Netanyahu says is pretty clear.

 

[bigjelmapro]

What Silvertein stated:

Bibi brags that he has America wrapped around his thumb

Is not what Netanyahu stated himself. That's the point I'm making.

 

[Lamafarmer]

So bigjelmapro, I understand you are in Israel? How was and is this video being perceived?

 

[bigjelmapro]

So bigjelmapro, I understand you are in Israel? How was and is this video being perceived?

Mixed feelings I take it, but the Haaretz article is the more extreme leftist interpretation of what this video represents, which is supported, as stated earlier, by the Richard Silverstein link.

One has to take into account that Netanyahu was making off-the-cuff statements, albeit not diplomatically, to cater/alleviate to a specific group of concerned parents who have been victims or relatives of victims of terrorist attacks.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Netanyahu and the current coalition government, but I don't understand the hype behind this video. Netanyahu is not dovish and is not an idiot/naive when it comes to dealing with and having dealt with the PLO/PA in the past up until today. There's been a gradual change to right-wing Israeli governments in direct reaction to the actions of the PLO over the past several decades.

I understand his concerns regarding the Hebron agreement and further concessions when one hasn't seen any of the requirements of these agreements (including Oslo) being met in the slightest by the PLO. What the superficial Haaretz article tried to do was to frame Netanyahu as being anti-peace the moment these concerns regarding any further concessions to the PLO were brought to light.

What I find especially idiotic about this Haaretz article was:

He calls then-U.S. President Bill Clinton "extremely pro-Palestinian," and says the Palestinians want to throw us into the sea. With such retrograde beliefs, no one can convincingly argue that he wants an agreement.

Seriously? These are viewed as 'retrograde beliefs'? These stem from the consistent position of the PLO from its inception and has been the position in Arafat's decades long reign in his common practice of doublespeak.

 

[Lamafarmer]

Yes, thank you.

 

[bigjelmapro]

As for Richard Silverstein and his blog, he's a pretty fail debater and when he can't seem to defend his position, resorts to a boatload of fallacies including the favorite ad homs.

And the result?:

Houston, we have a problem.

If you are seeing this, either:

We have been forced to temporarily block certain ranges of IP addresses due to a DOS attack
So, please try later.

OR

If you're still seeing this after a day, it's because your IP has been associated with spam in the past.

Typical...

 

[Thunder]

it is anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of being responsible for the failure of the Peace Process.

it is anti-Semitic to accuse a current or former Israeli PM of being "tricky", "lying", or "deceitful".

I am going to immediately contact the ADL and have this thread removed on the grounds of racial bigotry.