Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[d4m10n]

REMFs who still want to override sex segregation wherever they're posted, and will experience significant distress if thwarted. Keep it simple.

Simple would be simply saying "no" to that part.

 

[theprestige]

I don't even know what a REMF is. But the idea of someone as unstable as the trans-identifying people now popping up all over the place, and particularly at women's rights meetings near me, having any responsibility for national security, worries me quite a lot,

"Rear Echelon Mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊". Pejorative term among combat troops, for the support troops who have it easy and safe, far away from the front. It typically envisions a fat, lazy slob who sits behind a desk and collects a paycheck and contributes nothing to the herculean efforts of the combat troops.

 

[theprestige]

Simple would be simply saying "no" to that part.

And that's exactly what the DOD is doing. Saying "no" to that part, along with all the other parts of the conundrum. Simple!

 

[Rolfe]

Not an excluded middle; a discarded middle. If by "function normally" you mean "must still seek to override sex segregation, or else experience dysphoric distress", then they're not functioning normally, as far as the military is concerned.

On the other hand, if by "function normally" you mean "can keep their dysphoria in remission", I don't think there's any real evidence this can be done through psychotherapy alone, or even through pharmacology. In any case, it's not the military's job to do this kind of research.

There are some psychological conditions that are generally acceptable for military service, if properly treated with non-burdensome (to the military) medicine. In all the years we've been debating this, I haven't seen any good reason to think gender dysphoria is one of those conditions.

I'm not going to speculate about an inclusive middle, just for your amusement. If you think such a thing exists, make your case. Define your terms, give your examples, show your reasoning, and share your conclusions.

No, I do not. Like I said, I served at the peak of "don't ask, don't tell". Readiness-based arguments were already on their way out. DADT deprecated them de facto, and Congress later followed through with deprecating them de jure.

Also, homosexuality is not analogous to gender dysphoria, autogynaephilia, or autism-induced trans identification.

There is good reason to think that a mentally healthy homosexual soldier can maintain the expected standards of modesty and propriety, just like their heterosexual counterparts.

Conversely, there is good reason to believe that autogynaephiliacs (for example) cannot - not without experiencing significant distress.

Now, if you can show me an autogynaephiliac that says, "my transsexual and predatory urges are kept in remission by this little pill, which I take once a day with a glass of water, and I'm happy to serve my country as man", then I can show you someone who I'd be willing to tolerate in our armed forces.

It's been remarked on just how common it is for men who come out as trans in middle-age or later to have a military background - or something similar like the police. I wondered at one point whether there was some cause-and-effect there, possibly something like PTSD leading to men wanting to repudiate their masculinity. However, people who understand all this better than I do seem to think it's more likely that men who are trying to resist an autogynaephilic compulsion in their youth are inclined to choose very macho jobs, and this works for a while, until it doesn't.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you believe transwomen couldn't fill those same roles with similar effectiveness, aside from the likelihood that women's uniforms won't fit quite as well?

If they need therapy or medical care, yes, that will interfere with their ability to perform the role.

If they don't, then what does that even mean to be trans? Are they just transvestites? Because the military doesn't let anyone dress however they like.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes. It. Did. Though.

The amount of "sissy porn made me trans" stuff that people have dredged out of Reddit and TikTok and so on is phenomenal.

At one level this is about erotic cross-dressing, and that's possibly the more acceptable face of it. Boys and men getting off on stealing their sisters' and wives' underwear and gradually progressing to full "dressing". The realisation that now this fetish is feted as "stunning and brave" and nobody can deny the fetish-wearer anything makes the coming out process one hell of a drug. See the "Family Guy" (I think) clip of the man in women's clothes sitting at the bar looking at porn on his phone. The barman points out that looking at porn is forbidden on the premises. The TIM says, oh but I'm trans! The subtext being that trans means you can do anything you like because you're above criticism. The barman agrees, telling the man to go right on, sorry to have troubled you. No wonder this role is attractive to men who have the AGP compulsion.

But the dark underbelly of this is the fetishisation of women in a submissive, degrading sex role, and the desire to take on that role. A sub-genre of that is the "forced feminisation" role-play, where the erotic charge is achieved by a man being forced to take on the role of a female sex slave and submit to anything the master desires. When the man dresses as a female child or even infant it's even more disturbing. These men are role-playing their fantasies, and fantasies of abusive relationships and child sex are a huge red flag.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't even know what a REMF is.

Rear Echelon Mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊. A derogatory term for military people who don't serve in combat.

But the idea of someone as unstable as the trans-identifying people now popping up all over the place, and particularly at women's rights meetings near me, having any responsibility for national security, worries me quite a lot,

Come now. Sam Brinton, the transgender nuclear waste official, was a model of proprietary, responsibility, and discipline. Why wouldn't you trust him?

 

[Ziggurat]

Beats the hell out of the competance and faith inspired by a guy with a Sawz-All with a dildo strapped onto it.

I see you are still misrepresenting events.

 

[Thermal]

Yes. It. Did. Though.

Don't see how that was anything about trans, and I watched it all. Didn't seem like it was his takeaway that he was going to live his life as a woman. He said he got away from the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ and drugs and was sober and into Buddhism now.

 

[Thermal]

I see you are still misrepresenting events.

Just having a little fun. I know it wasn't him with the Sawz-All. It was another guy.

 

[Rolfe]

Rear Echelon Mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊. A derogatory term for military people who don't serve in combat.

Come now. Sam Brinton, the transgender nuclear waste official, was a model of proprietary, responsibility, and discipline. Why wouldn't you trust him?

Who is/was Sam Brinton? I'm struggling with the concept of anyone being openly transgender and yet being "a model of propriety (I presume you meant), responsibility, and discipline".

 

[Thermal]

Still a relevant demonstration of autogynephelia though..

But not of being trans. There's no connection to trans. The idea, the arousing thought, was likely AGP, yes. But you guys have stretched that over to 'therefore trans!' which doesn't follow at all. It didn't for the character

 

[Emily's Cat]

Just as an aside, would you call schizophrenia "neurodivergence"?

I am not a psychiatrist, psychologist, or neurologist... so don't take me as anything remotely like an expert. I don't think schizophrenia is considered a neurodivergence, it's not a neurodevelopmental disorder. It's classed as a psychotic disorder. Beyond that... make your best guess.

I really only bristle at neurodevelopmental conditions being called "mental health issues" or similar. I have a neurological condition (epilepsy), it's a physical disorder in the structure of my brain. My hardware has a short circuit. My spouse has ADHD, it's a neurodevelopmental disorder - their brain processes information in a different way than mine. They're running a different operating system and it's optimized for entirely different purposes. My sibling is bipolar, IIRC it's a mood disorder associated with disruptions in the regulation of emotions - their contrast setting is off. I know reasonable amounts about conditions that I've had exposure to, but then it gets off into very fuzzy territory. I know that the psychotic disorders have to do with processing perceptions as well as separating fact from fantasy, and I understand the difference between delusion and hallucination... but beyond that I really don't know much about them. I vaguely get that personality disorders have to do with problems interacting with other people, related to things like empathy, reciprocity, social trade-offs, etc. Behavioral disorders have to do with impulse control.

 

[theprestige]

Who is/was Sam Brinton? I'm struggling with the concept of anyone being openly transgender and yet being "a model of propriety (I presume you meant), responsibility, and discipline".

Samuel Otis Brinton (born 1986 or 1987)[1] is an American nuclear engineer and LGBTQ activist. They served as the deputy assistant secretary of Spent Fuel and Waste Disposition in the Office of Nuclear Energy from June to December 2022.[2][3][4] Brinton was dismissed by the Office of Nuclear Energy after being charged with luggage theft on three occasions.[4]​

​

Sam Brinton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

If you're wondering whether that thumbnail does him justice: Yes, he really does present as a bald Matt Damon in drag.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, I remember the incident now, I'd just forgotten the name. Didn't he steal the luggage of a well-known dress designer, with a number of absolutely unique pieces in it, then wear them to public events where she saw her beautiful dresses being mocked by being fitted on to a male body? Yes, an absolute model of propriety, responsibility and discipline.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Woman tend not to complain. They just stop using the service that has now become mixed sex. There's also the issue that if they do complain their complaints are often brushed aside while the demands of the men are given top priority. So eventually, they stop complaining and take themselves elsewhere. "We haven't had any complaints. There is a low demand for this service," kind of sums it up.

Someone linked to that Olympus Spa story not too long ago. I used to live near there, and I worked with several korean and chinese females who would go there regularly. I guarantee that they'll all self-exclude if males show up. I'll keep an eye out, I fully expect that spa to go out of business if they're actually being forced to allow bepenised individuals access. It's not even one of those with male and female sides to the spa, it's entirely female only.

 

[p0lka]

Reminds me of the kids these days that make a huge performance of having a severe mental disorder. Dissociative Identity Disorder is popular, as are Tourette's and Autism. Needless to say, these are self-diagnosed, and the symptoms they display are nothing like the actual symptoms of the disorder. That being said, I think that a lot of them really do have some sort of psychological or emotional cross-wiring. Just... not the disorder they pretend to have. Factitious Disorder by Social Media, maybe.

Non conformal conformity.

 

[Ziggurat]

Who is/was Sam Brinton? I'm struggling with the concept of anyone being openly transgender and yet being "a model of propriety (I presume you meant), responsibility, and discipline".

Oh my, I figured you'd know the reference and immediately pick up on my sarcasm. There is a tale to be told there, which I expect you will find of interest.

ETA: I would say ninja'd by theprestige, but it was right there in the open, I just didn't check.

 

[Rolfe]

Someone linked to that Olympus Spa story not too long ago. I used to live near there, and I worked with several korean and chinese females who would go there regularly. I guarantee that they'll all self-exclude if males show up. I'll keep an eye out, I fully expect that spa to go out of business if they're actually being forced to allow bepenised individuals access. It's not even one of those with male and female sides to the spa, it's entirely female only.

I'm currently having a bit of a row with the management of a theatre I attend regularly. I have stopped going into the women's toilets there since I realised that men in dresses were striding in as if they owned the place. I wasn't confident that management would back me up if I complained, so I just self-excluded. Which involves going six hours in the evening without "paying a call".

Here's the response.

We want everyone visiting our theatre to feel safe and respected. That includes offering clear options of male, female, accessible and, where space permits, as it does at Theatre Royal Glasgow, non-gendered toilets. We hope that these choices reflect the diversity of our valued customers.

We are aware of the recent Supreme Court ruling regarding the Equality Act and single-sex spaces. We are currently awaiting full, practical guidance on what changes may be required for businesses like ours. The official updated Code of Practice has not yet been published and is not expected prior to the end of June 2025.

In the meantime, we are working with our industry body, the Society of London Theatre and UK Theatre, to seek further advice from Government to maintain inclusive and welcoming facilities for all our guests.

All I asked was for an assurance that, if they received a complaint that a man was using the women's facilities, their staff would support the woman who complained, and not the man who had chosen to go where he shouldn't be. They can't even manage that. They already have the facilities in place - a new foyer area including bars and toilet facilities was added to the old Victorian theatre only ten years ago - but they can't give an assurance they will comply with the law.

What was singularly lacking in that letter was any acknowledgement that I, whom I would suppose would count as one of their "valued customers" was feeling neither safe nor respected. No apology that I was having to go for six hours without using the toilet. Certainly no assurance that I would be offered my choice of a female-only space where males were not permitted. Just wittering nonsense about waiting for an updated code of practice and seeking further advice from government before complying with the law as it has now been confirmed to have been for the past 15 years. I mean, further advice? A seven-year-old could understand it.

In ... services that are open to the public: trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women’s facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men’s facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex.

There's not much ambiguity, is there?

I am getting a subtext that women who want a single-sex facility don't count as "everyone" in the context of feeling safe and respected. That while the "diversity" contingent's special feelz are really, really important and serious and must be indulged, women's feelings can be safely discounted. And to add insult to injury, the missive was signed "Jen". Which I presume is short for "Jennifer the captured handmaiden".

 

[Rolfe]

Oh my, I figured you'd know the reference and immediately pick up on my sarcasm. There is a tale to be told there, which I expect you will find of interest.

ETA: I would say ninja'd by theprestige, but it was right there in the open, I just didn't check.

It was my fault. The name didn't ring the immediate bell it should have rung. Must have been having a senior moment. My mind had been running along Bradley Manning lines, and didn't immediately skip tracks.

Wasn't there a photo of him and that ghastly naval officer who transitioned in old age and then claimed the honour of being the first female admiral or something (ETA, "Rachael" Levine?), both posturing and grinning at the camera and looking absolutely ridiculous, and wasn't it part of Biden's election campaign? I freely admit I may have got some of this wrong.