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Transwomen are not Women - Part 14

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I'll ask again.

1) What is the difference between a society which doesn't one put unnecessary gender roles so that biological men/women can do anything that isn't necessitated by pure biology and a society which has strong(er) gender roles but lets people just decide which team they are on?

2) ONLY IF YOU HAVE ALREADY CLEARLY AND IN HUMAN SPEECH AT LEAST TRIED TO ANSWER #1 what is the advantage the later has over the former?
 
Matthew Best said:
We'd know because we'd all think this #blokeinawig is actually a woman:

[imgw=600]https://i.imgur.com/uBVrnep.jpg[/imgw]
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Did you look at my link to Jessica Rosenberg? Is that a bloke in a wig? What about the Mayor of Nashville and his family, of which there were diverse opinions?
 
Pixel42 said:
Maybe engineers just don't care as much about such things as other professionals. Or maybe sexism actually has got worse again, after so briefly getting better.
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Indeed engineers both technical and software are among the groups I'd expect to be outliers to the point where even upper management doesn't need to bother looking like a TV exec.
 
Matthew Best said:
maybe this will help:

[imgw=600]https://i.imgur.com/AEJIgdA.jpg[/imgw]
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Do you see the problem of needing to add context, including dates? If this is the same person, and it appears to be, you have added information that they are have either transitioned or they are wearing a costume in one of the pictures. Or possibly transitioned and then went through detransition.

Do you plan to address my counter-examples?
 
In a less obvious wig and a slightly fashionable pair of glasses, they would just look like a super dumpy looking lady to me. I don't usually spend a lot of time wondering if women who look like a pile of potatoes are really men, though I suppose that yes I'd look twice if they were wearing Charles Nelson Reilly glasses and a really obvious wig.

Is anyone actually suggesting there's no such thing as a trans person who doesn't pass for **** ? If not, what's the point of showing people who pass as well as a bloke in a Monty Python skit?
 
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Upchurch said:
Do you see the problem of needing to add context, including dates? If this is the same person, and it appears to be, you have added information that they are have either transitioned or they are wearing a costume in one of the pictures. Or possibly transitioned and then went through detransition.

Do you plan to address my counter-examples?
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I hadn't heard of or seen either of your two examples before so I had to do a quick google search. One looks like a lady with a beard, so could be a man or possibly a woman with a DSD. The other looks like a normal family to me. Did I get it right or wrong?
 
Matthew Best said:
I hadn't heard of or seen either of your two examples before so I had to do a quick google search. One looks like a lady with a beard, so could be a man or possibly a woman with a DSD. The other looks like a normal family to me. Did I get it right or wrong?
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The point wasn't whether you got it right or wrong. The point is that people, all with super accurate DNA perception, don't agree. Same with the story about women's restroom gatekeepers blocking cis women from entering.
 
My earlier point that that the whole "Here's a picture, what do you think this is?" thing doesn't work because a single out of context still picture is not the same as a living, breathing, moving person with posture and height and poise and body language and a voice you're interacting with over a period of time still stands.

Playing Guess Who Trans Flashcard identifies as besides the point.
 
Also this would be an easier conversation for all "sides" (as it where) if so much comedy in the past hadn't used "Getting mistaken for the opposite sex" as the setup or punchline.
 
Upchurch said:
The point wasn't whether you got it right or wrong. The point is that people, all with super accurate DNA perception, don't agree. Same with the story about women's restroom gatekeepers blocking cis women from entering.
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So there was no point in asking me the question? That seems weird.

But you know I think I will have to concede the point. You were right all along - you really can't tell a man from a woman.
 
Matthew Best said:
So there was no point in asking me the question? That seems weird.
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No, the point is that we haven't actually measured how accurate human ability to estimate someone's biological sex based on appearance, given atypical biological clues and social gender expression outside of what is normative for cis gendered people (or even what a particular group finds normative within that group).

The claim that humans have super awesome transdar is just a claim. It hasn't actually been supported with anything but cherry picking and cognitive bias.
 
The public policy debate would be a lot different if it were actually about natural androgynes being left alone to pass as the opposite sex like they usually do. Chasing after edge case red herrings doesn't solve the problem with fiat self-ID in sports, prisons, and representation. (Nor does unisex public restrooms.)
 
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RoMo said:
This only seems to have become a thing recently. I wonder what changed?
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The article I posted was from 2016 and I'd heard it anecdotally from a friend before that.

ETA: And, imho, the thing that changed was yet another moral panic.
 
Matthew Best said:
It's a guess, based on the fact that "People are remarkably accurate (approaching ceiling) at deciding whether faces are male or female, even when cues from hair style, makeup, and facial hair are minimised."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8474840/
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How dare you post links to facts and evidence, when this thread is all about "feelings" ;)

Upchurch said:
Do you see the problem of needing to add context, including dates? If this is the same person, and it appears to be, you have added information that they are have either transitioned or they are wearing a costume in one of the pictures. Or possibly transitioned and then went through detransition.
Click to expand...

And right there's YOUR problem. YOU require context, virtually no-one else does. The VAST majority of people will look at the first photo Matthew posted and be able to immediately tell its a male. If you cannot and can only tell the difference if you what is between their legs, that is YOUR problem.

Maybe you really do suffer from congenital prosopagnosia, but its very rare so I doubt it.
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Nice topic. I agree with the title of the topic. Transwomen are not women.

Nature calls for two different genders male and female with the ultimate purpose the continuation of the species. However, there are some hermaphrodite species but let us focus on humans.

The continuation of humanity can be achieved only by a male fertilizing a female. Two males or two females cannot produce new life. Therefore anything beyond the combination of male/female is a mistake of nature, an abnormality. If a baby boy is born, but growing up feels different i.e. feels like a girl then whatever he decides to do in his life he will always remain a boy physically. The same applies to girls feeling like boys.

The gender fluidity concept is mainly a sociological matter aiming at the smooth merge of these people into the rest of society. Unfortunately, the human species is savage. Anything beyond normal is not accepted most of the time. By normal I mean the general acceptance.

I do sympathize with trans/gay people but I object to the current status according to which abnormal tends to be accepted as normal. I find it appalling. I feel sorry for these people. It is horrible to feel a stranger in your own body. It is not fair to them. On the other hand, even if someone goes under surgery, takes pills, and changes their appearance, still they cannot beat nature.

However, since we all live once, I strongly believe that as long as someone decides to do what makes them happy and at peace with themselves without interfering or annoying or causing any sort of trouble to the rest of the people or animals then they are free to do it and live their lives as they wish.
 
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