Transgender man gives birth

[Noztradamus]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4747200/amp/Transgender-man-gives-birth-son.html

Someone please explain to me why I should be required to call this person a "man", even though "he" has become pregnant and gave birth to a child.

Because we are living in The Crazy Years

 

[TragicMonkey]

I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?

Why do you have to utter at all? Who asked you? Is it your place to pass judgment, aloud, on everybody else?

 

[Belz...]

Why do you have to utter at all? Who asked you? Is it your place to pass judgment, aloud, on everybody else?

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

Are you now saying that, if I don't call you want you want to be called, I should instead shut up? I do have to actually talk to people, you know? I just said that the truth can be told politely. Would you rather hear a more comfortable lie? If so, you can expect it from someone else.

 

[Babbylonian]

I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?

Why do you have to utter at all? Who asked you? Is it your place to pass judgment, aloud, on everybody else?

Exactly.

I wonder if the stated compulsions here to act so rudely to people are real or if they constitute yet another manifestation of "internet tough."

 

[tyr_13]

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

Are you now saying that, if I don't call you want you want to be called, I should instead shut up? I do have to actually talk to people, you know? I just said that the truth can be told politely. Would you rather hear a more comfortable lie? If so, you can expect it from someone else.

Lady, if you think you know the 'truth' of someone else's gender better than they do themselves and can tell them in a 'polite' way, you don't know what 'polite' means.

 

[applecorped]

Take people as you find them and treat them the way you'd want to be treated...or, perhaps better yet, treat them the way you'd want your beloved child to be treated it they were in the same situation. It's pretty hard to go wrong like that, and I highly doubt any municipality will attempt to fine you for it.

I hate my kids.

 

[TragicMonkey]

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

Are you now saying that, if I don't call you want you want to be called, I should instead shut up? I do have to actually talk to people, you know? I just said that the truth can be told politely. Would you rather hear a more comfortable lie? If so, you can expect it from someone else.

And these conversations you must have with the transgendered, they require you to bring up your opinions about transgenderism? "Hello, yes, I'd like to rent the Acura. Also you are biologically male." "I'll have the 8 ounce filet with green beans and a potato, and your possession of a uterus disqualifies you from being called by a male pronoun by me." "Excuse me, what are your chromosomes like? I need to know because we're in a meeting to watch a PowerPoint presentation about shipping costs."

eta: like my racist grandpa, who would ask people "what are you?" if they didn't seem obviously white or black to him.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Take people as you find them and treat them the way you'd want to be treated

Even if they're Republicans?

 

[Belz...]

Exactly.

I wonder if the stated compulsions here to act so rudely to people are real or if they constitute yet another manifestation of "internet tough."

Why is it so difficult to read what I post for comprehension. Here it is again:

I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?

Did you miss that part? Was it easier to focus on the part you disagreed with?

Tell me, is there no lie you wouldn't tell someone just because they ask you to?

 

[Belz...]

Lady, if you think you know the 'truth' of someone else's gender better than they do themselves and can tell them in a 'polite' way, you don't know what 'polite' means.

I said I was Emperor of the World, Tyr. I think I know my rank better than you do.

See how that works? No. I'm not emperor of the world, and there are objective measures of who's a he and who's a she.

And these conversations you must have with the transgendered, they require you to bring up your opinions about transgenderism? "Hello, yes, I'd like to rent the Acura. Also you are biologically male." "I'll have the 8 ounce filet with green beans and a potato, and your possession of a uterus disqualifies you from being called by a male pronoun by me." "Excuse me, what are your chromosomes like? I need to know because we're in a meeting to watch a PowerPoint presentation about shipping costs."

eta: like my racist grandpa, who would ask people "what are you?" if they didn't seem obviously white or black to him.

Wow, that's some pretty massive chip you have on your shoulder, there, to be utterly unable to address what someone actually says. All you know is "Argumemnon disagrees with my obviously superior moral opinion. How dare he?"

I'll have you know that when you speak to someone you often address them as "sir" or "ma'am" or something like that. So yeah, I do have to use pronouns they might not like. It's not as if this is some arcane, long-forgotten obscure social more.

How about you respond to what I actually say rather than address some social boogeyman of your own design? That way it may appear as if you're having a conversation like an adult.

 

[Babbylonian]

Why is it so difficult to read what I post for comprehension. Here it is again:



Did you miss that part? Was it easier to focus on the part you disagreed with?

Tell me, is there no lie you wouldn't tell someone just because they ask you to?

You seem to be under the impression that you are in the possession of truth as it applies to others. It's both arrogant and bigoted to believe it, and it's extremely rude for you to point out your personal truth about someone else's gender unless they *********** well ask you for it.

If you want to correct someone's math, go to it. If someone attributes a quote to Shakespeare that was actually written by Keats, feel free to let them know. If someone corrects your use of mister or miss because they don't identify as the gender you thought they did, correct yourself or shut up. There is no non-rude, non-hurtful way you can insist on referring to them according to your preference rather than theirs.

 

[Noztradamus]

By being unnecessarily rude to someone. It doesn't hurt you to indulge someone in their choice of pronoun, whether it's "correct" or not in your opinion. Courtesy is the art of making people comfortable. It doesn't hurt me if someone wants to be called "she". So why wouldn't I call them what they want? Is being right more important than being polite in this matter?

You don't have to agree with someone to be polite to them.

You don't have to be polite to someone to agree with them either.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Wow, that's some pretty massive chip you have on your shoulder, there, to be utterly unable to address what someone actually says. All you know is "Argumemnon disagrees with my obviously superior moral opinion. How dare he?"

Yeah, that must be it.

I'll have you know that when you speak to someone you often address them as "sir" or "ma'am" or something like that.

Are you from the nineteenth century? If you don't know whether someone's male or female you can just omit the terms. Or in your case if you disagree with their gender. But it will still work regardless.

So yeah, I do have to use pronouns they might not like. It's not as if this is some arcane, long-forgotten obscure social more.

How many people get mad if you don't call them "sir" or "ma'am"? Do you work in a really snooty retail establishment?

How about you respond to what I actually say rather than address some social boogeyman of your own design? That way it may appear as if you're having a conversation like an adult.

You can't really try to come across as the adult when you're dispensing the childish insults.

 

[Belz...]

You seem to be under the impression that you are in the possession of truth as it applies to others.

If you believe in objective reality at all then you know that truth is independant of one's beliefs. So, in fact, everyone is in possession of truth as it applies to others.

It's both arrogant and bigoted to believe it, and it's extremely rude for you to point out your personal truth about someone else's gender unless they *********** well ask you for it.

And there we have it _again_. The ONLY argument that you have on this topic is that anyone who disagrees with you is a big meanie. You have no argument.

If you want to correct someone's math, go to it.

Why? What if they believe with all their heart that 2+2=5? Wouldn't it be rude to tell them that they're wrong? Aren't you being arrogant to tell them such things? Or does that principle only apply to the things you agree with?

 

[Noztradamus]

Perhaps it's more germane for you to say why you should care. What, in your world, would crumble if you call a person what he prefers.

"When dealing with the insane, the best method is to pretend to be sane." - Hermann Hesse

 

[Babbylonian]

And there we have it _again_. The ONLY argument that you have on this topic is that anyone who disagrees with you is a big meanie. You have no argument.

I have no argument? Treating people with respect should be everyone's default position. Why? Because it makes socialization work. Your stated desire to vomit your truth all over others, even if you know that it means treating them in a way they would dislike, is the position that is indefensible.

 

[johnny karate]

It's the new "Why do black people get to say the N-word but I can't?" argument.

 

[Belz...]

Are you from the nineteenth century?

You know, for all your talk of being nice to other people you seem to dislike the words we've used to be nice to each other for centuries. Apparently you think calling a man you don't know "sir" is some sort of weird, antiquated manner alien to our time. I assure you, it's still very much in use. It sure beats calling people "you there" or "hey".

If you don't know whether someone's male or female you can just omit the terms.

I've never had that problem, see?

 

[Belz...]

I have no argument? Treating people with respect should be everyone's default position.

Hey, this is the third time I have to repeat myself to you. Pay attention:

I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?

Do you see the highlited part, this time? Why are you trying to teach me that you shouldn't be rude to people when this is exactly what I've been saying?

But there's a difference between being nice and telling people what they want to hear all the time. It would be really respectful if you at least acknowledged that.

It's the new "Why do black people get to say the N-word but I can't?" argument.

It's absolutely nothing like it at all. "Him" is not a derogatory word.

 

[TragicMonkey]

You know, for all your talk of being nice to other people you seem to dislike the words we've used to be nice to each other for centuries. Apparently you think calling a man you don't know "sir" is some sort of weird, antiquated manner alien to our time. I assure you, it's still very much in use. It sure beats calling people "you there" or "hey".

You can still omit the terms when in doubt. There is no part of the English language that requires use of them to make sense of your speech. If you are talking to someone and don't call them either "sir" or "ma'am" do they get confused and wonder who you are talking to? How often do you call them "sir" or "ma'am"? In every remark you make? "It's a nice day, sir. The traffic was heavy, sir. Sir, did you see the game last night? Sir, it was a ludicrous display, sir." Are you a butler? When people speak to each other it's usually pretty obvious who is talking to whom, without using extra terminology.

I've never had that problem, see?

You think you don't have that problem but apparently you do. You seem to have some compulsion to dwell on the sex of whoever you're talking to, to the extreme of arguing with them if you think they've gotten it wrong. That you don't see it as a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem.