Trans Women are not Women

[Puppycow]

That's acting.

Dolezal committed to the lifestyle as a matter of personal identity.

No, he also claimed to be a genuine Native American in real life. Off set as well as on. It went well beyond just playing a role.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/iron-eyes-cody

Interesting story. He claimed that his mother was Cree and his father was Cherokee.

Though Cody’s heritage would prove phony, his contributions to Native American culture were true and generous. He leveraged his fame to act as a cultural ambassador to Native Americans and sought to correct common misconceptions and stereotypes about who he claimed to be his people and his heritage. For example, Iron Eyes would often persuade directors to show Native Americans as complex characters rather than the silent warrior stereotype that was more popular of the day.

Cody’s dedication to the Native American cause was even more apparent in his personal life. In 1936 he married Bertha Parker, popularly known as the “First Female Native American Archaeologist.” The couple adopted two sons also of Native American descent.
Together, they hosted a TV show about Native American history and served as advisers on films depicting Native Americans.

In 1996, the Times-Picayune newspaper published a report that revealed some surprising truths about Iron Eyes Cody’s ancestry. Far from being one of America’s original inhabitants, Cody was the son of two Italian immigrants. Antonio DeCorti and his wife Francesca, nèe Salpietra, had come to New Orleans around the turn of the 20th century. Together the couple had four children, of whom Espera de Corti, sometimes called “Oscar,” was the second oldest, born on April 3, 1904.
This was Cody’s real name.
Although baptism and immigration records were revealed to the public in this report, Cody denied it. When the Times called him with the facts they had unearthed, he replied, “You can’t prove it. All I know is that I’m just another Indian.” The paper was, however, able to track down Cody’s half-sister May Abshire who could, in fact, prove it.

https://www.academia.edu/11282618/Native_Son_Italian-American_Identity_of_Iron_Eyes_Cody_

 

[Wayward son]

That's acting.

Dolezal committed to the lifestyle as a matter of personal identity.

Another example, which I think is better than Iron Eyes Cody was Grey Owl who was probably the most famous Native American for years (1920s and 30s). Actually for a time he was considered the most famous Canadian. Many films, books, lectures etc. He toured beyond North America, going to England and meeting the King and Queen. The day he died a newspaper (which had been sitting on the story for several years) exposed him as not being either Native American or Canadian, but instead Archibald Belaney born and raised in England.

 

[cullennz]

I think such a thing may actually make it harder for a trans person. There are currently things that are acceptable for one gender and not the other: dresses for women, beards for men for example. By adopting attire/grooming/ etc. That is acceptable for their identified gender but not their biological associated gender, I think it might mask their dysphoria. Kind of like taking a pain killer. It doesn't actually make the pain go away, it just makes it so the body doesn't notice.

If there is no gendered distinction in appearance it may be harder to suppress the feeling of dysphoria.

I'm not sure how true that is. It's just speculation.

I think that is a bit silly

Basically I think what women and men wear at any current time outside a working environment if there are uniforms, for the 99.1% (or whatever) of women and men who aren't struggling with their "gender", are wearing just clothes designed to show off the differences in the bodies to make themselves attractive.

We are at the end of the day animals that are here to make more people.

Hence make-up, high heels and miniskirts and tight t-shirts and tailored trou'

 

[qayak]

Even if technology reaches a point where a male individual could download the contents of his mind into a newly-built 100% female body assembled from base atoms in a Star Trek replicator there are still some feminists who would say the resulting individual isn't a woman because it didn't start out life living only the female experience.

Well, it's hard to disagree with them but stepping back to today, how did a guy who had a sex change become "Woman of the Year" a few months later? Are women really that pathetic that a man who once won a race is the best thing they managed for an entire ******* year?

Why didn't she/he win Man of the Year? Oh, because they weren't man enough . . . which automatically means they are more than woman enough? ********! They are neither man, nor woman, enough.

It's as stupid as saying grey isn't black enough to be Black of the Year but definitely is more than white enough to win White of the Year.

Sex and gender have always been interchangable. Claiming that sex and gender are different is absurd, and pretty ******* stupid to be honest. "Give your balls a tug and sort yourself out!"

 

[Robin]

Sex and gender have always been interchangable. Claiming that sex and gender are different is absurd, and pretty ******* stupid to be honest.

But society have been making the distinction between sex and gender for a while.

"Not a real man" or "You're not a man" or "You're a girl", or calling a guy "she" when he doesn't act according to the cultural expectation and so on.

So society has been saying for a while that you can be biologically male and "not a man".

Trouble is when we say "Have it your way, I'm not a man" they turn round and say "there is no difference between biological sex and gender". You can't win.

 

[cullennz]

But society have been making the distinction between sex and gender for a while.

"Not a real man" or "You're not a man" or "You're a girl", or calling a guy "she" when he doesn't act according to the cultural expectation and so on.

So society has been saying for a while that you can be biologically male and "not a man".

Trouble is when we say "Have it your way, I'm not a man" they turn round and say "there is no difference between biological sex and gender". You can't win.

As terms I think Sex and Gender were inter changeable for a long time

Only recently has (as I see it, which may not be right in certain peoples minds)

Sex meant biological sex you are born as

Gender meant whatever you think you are

 

[caveman1917]

Getting rid of these constructs might "solve" transgenderism. If my ass-pulled theory is correct, and gender disphoria is a kind of allergic reaction to social constructs around gender, then abolishing those constructs may result in transgenderism disappearing from the scene almost entirely.

Your theory is supported by observations of Native American cultures. Some cultures had strict gender roles and hierarchy of the sexes whereas some other cultures didn't. The former cultures had the phenomenon of "Two-Spirit people" (basically a "third gender" for those individuals who didn't feel like they fit in with the strict gender roles and hierarchy, a bit like modern transgenderism) whereas the latter cultures did not have this phenomenon. This suggests that transgenderism is driven by the strictness and hierarchical nature of a culture's gender roles.

 

[Robin]

As terms I think Sex and Gender were inter changeable for a long time

Only recently has (as I see it, which may not be right in certain peoples minds)

Sex meant biological sex you are born as

Gender meant whatever you think you are

I can't remember a time, or think of a time, when "being a man" was synonymous with "being an adult male".

When Kipling said "and what is more you'll be a man" I don't think he meant "and what is more you will be an adult with a penis".

As long as I remember it has always been alleged that being an adult male is not enough to be a man, that you also have to act in a certain way.

 

[Darat]

I can't remember a time, or think of a time, when "being a man" was synonymous with "being an adult male".



When Kipling said "and what is more you'll be a man" I don't think he meant "and what is more you will be an adult with a penis".



As long as I remember it has always been alleged that being an adult male is not enough to be a man, that you also have to act in a certain way.

Very good point.

 

[Pterodactyl]

And yet “Florida Man” attains Kipling’s standard without much effort.

 

[qayak]

But society have been making the distinction between sex and gender for a while.

"Not a real man" or "You're not a man" or "You're a girl", or calling a guy "she" when he doesn't act according to the cultural expectation and so on.

So society has been saying for a while that you can be biologically male and "not a man".

Trouble is when we say "Have it your way, I'm not a man" they turn round and say "there is no difference between biological sex and gender". You can't win.

Who is this "they" you speak of? In fact, the distinction between gender and sex is recent, very, very recent. Government forms for my entire life, birth certificates, census forms, driver's licences, S.I.Nunber. etc. use the two interchangably.

The very idea that sex and gender are different is dispelled by the people who claim they are different. If they were different, there would be no issue with bathrooms because they have always been sorted by sex even under the new definition and a transwoman is of the male sex according to their own definition but they don't want to use the male bathroom. They want a bathroom for their own gender.

Also, insurance companies have shown it is more risky to insure male drivers and they charge different rates for male and female drivers. With this new confusion male drivers can claim female on their licence and get a reduced rate. If sex and gender were not interchangable, that wouldn't be possible. Ticking the wrong box on your licence application doesn't change your sex, and yet the discount is based on sex, not gender by the new definitions.

So, a male driver can change their sex by changing their gender on the form and a male bathroom goer can change their sex by changing their gender. Which just shows that, even now, sex and gender are the same thing. If it weren't, changing your gender would never change your sex, but the very people who claim the two are different think it does.

 

[qayak]

I can't remember a time, or think of a time, when "being a man" was synonymous with "being an adult male".

When Kipling said "and what is more you'll be a man" I don't think he meant "and what is more you will be an adult with a penis".

As long as I remember it has always been alleged that being an adult male is not enough to be a man, that you also have to act in a certain way.

Exactly. "Man up" was taught to me in the 1960's to mean "Turn and face whatever problem you are avoiding." It was used on either male or females because it had to do with being a member of the human species and behaving accordingly.

I think it is unfortunate that the human species is also called man for the confusion it causes. We often think great authors choose the perfect words when they actually choose words because of how they sound together. Kiplings words sound better than words that provide a clearer meaning: ". . . and what is more you will be a responsible human being."

I think this is also why so many people hate Jordan Peterson. He talks like this, echoing the words of authors like Kipling. However, when he gets down to explaining his meaning he is clearly talking about both men and women.

 

[JihadJane]

Who is this "they" you speak of? In fact, the distinction between gender and sex is recent, very, very recent. Government forms for my entire life, birth certificates, census forms, driver's licences, S.I.Nunber. etc. use the two interchangably.

For at least half a century, gender has been used to describe the social roles societies assign on the basis of sex.

The very idea that sex and gender are different is dispelled by the people who claim they are different. If they were different, there would be no issue with bathrooms because they have always been sorted by sex even under the new definition and a transwoman is of the male sex according to their own definition but they don't want to use the male bathroom. They want a bathroom for their own gender.

Transwomen want to use women's sex-segregated bathrooms to validate their gender identity, not their (male) sex.

Also, insurance companies have shown it is more risky to insure male drivers and they charge different rates for male and female drivers. With this new confusion male drivers can claim female on their licence and get a reduced rate. If sex and gender were not interchangable, that wouldn't be possible. Ticking the wrong box on your licence application doesn't change your sex, and yet the discount is based on sex, not gender by the new definitions.

Allowing people to legally represent themselves as members of the opposite sex is "legal fiction". It's not a statement about empirical reality.

So, a male driver can change their sex by changing their gender on the form and a male bathroom goer can change their sex by changing their gender. Which just shows that, even now, sex and gender are the same thing. If it weren't, changing your gender would never change your sex, but the very people who claim the two are different think it does.

The word 'gender' can used as a synonym for sex and also to the describe the social roles and behaviours assigned on the basis of people's sex.

Humans rights law differentiates between sex and gender.

 

[luchog]

Scientific American: Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia

Excerpt:

Contrary to popular belief, scientific research helps us better understand the unique and real transgender experience. Specifically, through three subjects: (1) genetics, (2) neurobiology and (3) endocrinology. So, hold onto your parts, whatever they may be. It’s time for “the talk.”

There are a lot of links to studies that very effectively debunk the pseudo-scientific propaganda so beloved of the religious right and their TERF bed partners.

Not that any of the bigots here will pay attention to it, of course, but anyone who is actually interested in real and demonstrable facts will find it very informative.

Excerpt:

Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.

It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.

Emphasis added, link to citations available in the article itself.

 

[d4m10n]

Not that any of the bigots here will pay attention to it, of course, but anyone who is actually interested in real and demonstrable facts will find it very informative.

Do you generally find that calling people bigots helps to open their minds?

 

[Robin]

Who is this "they" you speak of?

I didn't keep their phone numbers

In fact, the distinction between gender and sex is recent, very, very recent. Government forms for my entire life, birth certificates, census forms, driver's licences, S.I.Nunber. etc. use the two interchangably.

I have been told all my life that I was "not a man", "not a real man", to "act like a man" or "stop acting like a girl", or referring to me as "she" and so on and so forth.

Are you saying that I am a liar and no-one ever said anything like that?

 

[luchog]

Do you generally find that calling people bigots helps to open their minds?

It's been my experience in the half-century I've lived on this miserable rock, that some peoples' minds simply cannot be opened. They'd rather invent elaborate conspiracy theories about how a secret cabal, of whatever their pet scapegoat might be -- Jews, Capitalists, Marxists, Autogynephiles, Lizardmen, or whatever -- is manipulating the media and scientific communities behind the scenes to "suppress the truth" and "publish false information"; than to acknowledge that the bulk of verifiable, peer-reviewed scientific research is solidly against them. When said individuals start resorting to parroting religious right-wing propaganda as established scientific fact, they're clearly beyond reasonable persuasion.

Trying to change their minds is a lost cause, so rather than wasting time going 'round and 'round the same tired nonsense for the 2^Nth time, the best thing to do is just point and laugh and concentrate on those who are more likely to listen.

 

[Lambchops]

Do you generally find that calling people bigots helps to open their minds?

Being a bigot is gonna lead to being called a bigot.

Are you saying we should care more about their feelings than the facts?

 

[caveman1917]

...

You found someone who wrote a blog? That's nice, how about some scientific sources (as in peer-reviewed journals) instead?

 

[Belz...]

I can't remember a time, or think of a time, when "being a man" was synonymous with "being an adult male".

When Kipling said "and what is more you'll be a man" I don't think he meant "and what is more you will be an adult with a penis".

As long as I remember it has always been alleged that being an adult male is not enough to be a man, that you also have to act in a certain way.

That is the exact opposite of my experience. Sure, men were expected to act a certain way, but that's not what defined them.