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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Some people argue that the concept of gender is entirely expendable. I'm not sure of it, but I'm going to think about it out loud.

I think I understand where they're coming from. Until very recently, there was a great overlap between the concept of sex and the concept of gender in western society. Not only both concepts would overlap in daily conversations, but it was generally understood that a female (sex) is a woman (gender) and a male (sex) is a man (gender).

Nowadays, people are increasingly aware of the gender/sex distinction. But what is, in practice, the actual relevance of said distinction, nowadays? Should our sex restrict the way we present ourselves to society like it did in the past, when there was virtually no practical distinction between sex and gender? If we agree that the right to individual self-expression should be at the core of a modern liberal (in the broad sense, Americans) society, traditional gender roles should be just another valid choice, like any other. So, if that is the case, what value does gender add to the equation, and how many genders can there be, given that the concept is entirely detached from the empirical realm?

So, I was thinking, what is the root cause of the increasing phenomenon of gender fluidity? Isn't that a natural response when someone feels that gender is irrelevant, when a person feels that they don't fit any one category, fully? So, what is gender for, at least to the vast majority of people? What is the need to compartmentalize yourself when you can be yourself.

So, I'm back to square one: who does need gender nowadays? And I'm unsure. I guess those who suffer from gender dysphoria (if you don't like the term, feel free to replace it with whatever fits the idea). But this is not where we are now. There is conflict, and it stems from the basic fact of sex being empirically verifiable, as opposed to gender.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism

The root of the concept of mental illness (and illness in general) seems to be “that which we ought to treat”

I disagree. I think the root concept of illness is an abnormal and harmful condition. And that isn't just socially constructed. There's a lot of social construction which surrounds that, but that's not the same thing. So the psychosis of the guy in the video I played, that's not socially constructed. And it's frankly insulting to suggest that it is, as you claim,

no more than social agreement among health professionals in response to patient and wider thought.

I will again say that's bull ****.

In that context consider how homosexuality has moved out of mental illness professional categories.

That's an excellent example of how social constructions can complicate our understanding of mental illness, and how we can sometimes get it wrong. But the suggestion that this applies to all types of mental illness is simply nonsense.
 
Munchausen's by proxy: A socially constructed problem that we could eliminate entirely by not calling it a problem anymore.

This is technically correct, proving once again that technically correct is the worst kind of correct.
 
I disagree. I think the root concept of illness is an abnormal and harmful condition. And that isn't just socially constructed. There's a lot of social construction which surrounds that, but that's not the same thing. So the psychosis of the guy in the video I played, that's not socially constructed. And it's frankly insulting to suggest that it is, as you claim,



I will again say that's bull ****.



That's an excellent example of how social constructions can complicate our understanding of mental illness, and how we can sometimes get it wrong. But the suggestion that this applies to all types of mental illness is simply nonsense.

The “ought to treat” is built into the subjectiveness of harmful. Is being a homosexual harmful? That is an argument that has been made. According to who?
 
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Munchausen's by proxy: A socially constructed problem that we could eliminate entirely by not calling it a problem anymore.

This is technically correct, proving once again that technically correct is the worst kind of correct.

Technically a strawman. Put that trope away with your analogy one and try for a charitable take. Just a suggestion.
 
The “ought to treat” is built into the subjectiveness of harmful. Is being a homosexual harmful? That is an argument that has been made. According to who?

The harm from psychosis isn't subjective. That some kinds of harm (such as from homosexuality) are subjective doesn't mean all forms of harm are.
 
Technically a strawman. Put that trope away with your analogy one and try for a charitable take. Just a suggestion.

The charitable take is that you're really bad at communicating, and that you're blaming others for that.

The less charitable take is that you actually believe some pretty horrific things.
 
The “ought to treat” is built into the subjectiveness of harmful. Is being a homosexual harmful? That is an argument that has been made. According to who?

Homosexuality is off topic.

The question here is, "is gender dysphoria harmful?"

Personally, I'm not sure. If I understand the medical literature and the positions of trans-rights activists correctly, it sure seems harmful.

But it seems like you're saying it might not be harmful? Can you clarify that? Are you arguing that gender dysphoria is not harmful, or should not be seen as harmful?
 
It is indeed harmful, by definition, as it entails clinically significant distress or functional impairment.

https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiat...onforming-patients/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis

Like I said, if I understand the medical literature correctly, it sure seems like it's harmful.

But it also seems like Sideroxylon has a countervailing opinion, and that we should reconsider our (socially constructed?) pathologizing of gender dysphoria.

I already know the DSM's perspective. I'm hoping Sideroxylon will share their perspective in greater detail. Hopefully enough detail to reach some practical conclusions about things like whether transwomen should be entitled to compete in women's sports, or be housed in women's prisons. Him merely saying mental illness is socially constructed doesn't get us any closer to answering the remaining difficult questions of public policy, on this topic. I'm hoping he can and will bring it back around to what we're actually debating.
 
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It is indeed harmful, by definition, as it entails clinically significant distress or functional impairment.

https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiat...onforming-patients/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis

Yes, and the criterion of clinically significant distress or impairment as necessary for diagnosis was also present in the DSM-IV for the diagnosis of 'gender identity disorder'. The name was changed to move the focus from identity to dysphoria, and reduce stigma associated with the term 'disorder'. Activists often pretend that just having a cross-sex identity or being gender non-conforming without dysphoria was considered a diagnosable disorder prior to DSM-5, to draw false parallels with homosexuality and to discredit entire bodies of research prior to DSM-5 when they don't like what the research showed (such as all the research showing that most cases of gender dysphoria in children resolve at puberty if children are not affirmed and transitioned).
 
If people have to look up a wikipedia article to figure out what you are saying, then what you are saying isn't all that clear.

90% of English readers would have interpreted it exactly the same as EC did, and as I did initially.

You could have clarified and explained. You chose to insult. Your choice.

To be fair, I suppose posting the wikipedia article actually constitutes clarifying and expanding, so thanks for that.
 
Read the treatment part.
The treatment part doesn't tell us if you think it's harmful or not.

There are people who would have that a happy individual post treatment is mentally ill. Show of hands here?
Someone who is happier when their mental illness is being treated is mentally ill by definition. Or else what even is the treatment for?

So it comes down to whether gender dysphoria is a mental illness, requiring medical treatment, or not. What's your view?
 
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The treatment part doesn't tell us if you think it's harmful or not.


Someone who is happier when their mental illness is being treated is mentally ill by definition. Or else what even is the treatment for?

So it comes down to whether gender dysphoria is a mental illness, requiring medical treatment, or not. What's your view?

What part of the concept “post treatment” are you struggling with? Strike that. Its totally incorrect on my part. There is just no post.

The issue here is that people here are in disagreement with the mental health professionals on what constitutes the best treatment and people living a good life in treatment in the gender they feel comfort in, as continuing to exhibiting a psychosis that they would treat otherwise.
 
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What part of the concept “post treatment” are you struggling with? Strike that. Its totally incorrect on my part. There is just no post.

The issue here is that people here are in disagreement with the mental health professionals on what constitutes the best treatment and people living a good life in treatment in the gender they feel comfort in, as continuing to exhibiting a psychosis that they would treat otherwise.

Seems like all your rigamarole about mental illness being socially constructed was totally irrelevant. You agree that gender dysphoria is real. You agree that it is harmful. And you agree that the harm can be mitigated by medical treatment.

And, of course, you agree that people suffering from gender dysphoria are in fact mentally ill.
 
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Some people argue that the concept of gender is entirely expendable. I'm not sure of it, but I'm going to think about it out loud.

I think I understand where they're coming from. Until very recently, there was a great overlap between the concept of sex and the concept of gender in western society. Not only both concepts would overlap in daily conversations, but it was generally understood that a female (sex) is a woman (gender) and a male (sex) is a man (gender).

Nowadays, people are increasingly aware of the gender/sex distinction. But what is, in practice, the actual relevance of said distinction, nowadays? Should our sex restrict the way we present ourselves to society like it did in the past, when there was virtually no practical distinction between sex and gender? If we agree that the right to individual self-expression should be at the core of a modern liberal (in the broad sense, Americans) society, traditional gender roles should be just another valid choice, like any other. So, if that is the case, what value does gender add to the equation, and how many genders can there be, given that the concept is entirely detached from the empirical realm?

So, I was thinking, what is the root cause of the increasing phenomenon of gender fluidity? Isn't that a natural response when someone feels that gender is irrelevant, when a person feels that they don't fit any one category, fully? So, what is gender for, at least to the vast majority of people? What is the need to compartmentalize yourself when you can be yourself.

So, I'm back to square one: who does need gender nowadays? And I'm unsure. I guess those who suffer from gender dysphoria (if you don't like the term, feel free to replace it with whatever fits the idea). But this is not where we are now. There is conflict, and it stems from the basic fact of sex being empirically verifiable, as opposed to gender.

So much depends on definitions, and the trans-inclusive supporters tend not to really like to be pinned down on something so insignificant as the meaning of words.

For example, you say that people are now more aware of the gender/sex distinction. I'm certainly aware that people want to make such a distinction, but I'm not sure the distinction is meaningful. To be sure of it, I would have to have a definition. Some people insist that "gender" is a very real thing that is an inherent characteristic of a human being, while others think it's a societally invented construct.

In the end, I come back to the same square one as you do. Who needs it?

And, it doesn't really have much to do with my position when it comes to public policy. Where there are distinctions that are important between males and females, sex should be the deciding factor. In places where those distinctions don't matter, society shouldn't make distinctions.

When it comes to public policy, it really is all about sports and toilets.

ETA: After typing the above, my news feed had a story about Ukraine. The important distinction between males and females there is kind of in the same direction as "sports", but much, much, more important.
 
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Seems like all your rigamarole about mental illness being socially constructed was totally irrelevant. You agree that gender dysphoria is real. You agree that it is harmful. And you agree that the harm can be mitigated by medical treatment.

And, of course, you agree that people suffering from gender dysphoria are in fact mentally ill.

There is much less nuance with the way trans people are branded as mentally ill. How many people here see the treatment as the wrong treatment and the very expression of identity as mental illness? What we would treat is the dysphoria through changing the physiology and not the identity. Working on the identify side of the equation should raise many moral, ethical and human existential questions.

As an illustrative but not an expansive prescriptive analogy, Alex DeLarge was to some degree killed in A Clockwork Orange. So was Alan Turing for a time then literally.
 
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